Played this hand a month ago - i folded, solver assumes its a small ev mistake, i will reveal my hand later if requested. Just wondering what your calling range would be here

5/10/20 9 handed 2.5k eff

Im in straddle with xx

Utg+2 raises to 50, very good pro from europe but lives here now, studies, in the solver streets for sure.

I defend , probably viewed as a decent tag

Flop Kc8s4d (115)

I check, he bets 35, i call

Turn Kc8s4d 9c (185)

I check, he bets 250, i call

River Kc8s4d 9c9s (685)

I check, he bets 1k, whats your calling range here?

I think my online data will be relevant if this guy is as good as you say. His postflop sizing's are very good.

Your Kx/8x will be a 0EV bluff catcher OTR.

Here is UTG (6max so almost equivalent to UTG+2 in 9max). Triple Barrel Range



Underbluffed for all sizing's except B120 OTR which is GTOish

Below is a BTNvsBB triple barrel range to compare to filters.



Poker is all about nuance.

The 9x OTT gives a lot of his hands equity which makes me want to call down here.

Data point 1: Flush draw missed (over bluffed 36 weak vs 35 weak)---->Good data point to call down (This is BTNvsBB SRP but the texture tendencies don't change based on position).

Data point 2: Middle/low pairing OTR on K-T high board (overbluffed 37 weak vs 35 weak)

Data point 3: Bet sizing indicates he has strong grasp of fundamentals----->Overbluff as a default

Counter points:

1. In theory you are supposed to RFI tighter when there is a straddle so it's possible his preflop range is slightly stronger than it should be. I don't think this point is strong enough to overturn the other 3 data points.

Conclusion: Call Down with 0EV Bluff Catchers (Any Kx/8x).

Interested in results.

Assuming we're 3B'ing pre with AA, AK, and QQ, but not TT or JJ, I'm probably calling with KQ, KJ, JJ, TT, A8 no clubs, and 87 with no clubs. Probably folding A8cc and 87cc.

Youre asking me to construct an entire range that id play call/call/call on this board? How about tell me your hand and ill let you know if i wouldve played it this way.

My personal range if i were in Vs range in a spot like this would be pretty wide, and against me youd probably be EV+ to call with TPMK like KJ, but my experience is that I give V credit for not being too passive like everyone else, and then when i call them down in spots like this, its ALWAYS something like 88.

I have a few notes i read every time before i sit down to play poker, the very first one says “people dont play like you.” To remind me that in spots like this they tend to just have it, and its fine to be bluffed, bevause population tendencies even of pros seems to be that they massively under triple barrel bluff.

I will also caveat that I only have probably 20-30 hours of 5/10+ experience, so might not be as much the case at these levels.

I tend to agree with most of this. At 1/3 and 2/5, I'm going to need a stronger hand to call the turn over-bet, and an even stronger hand to call the river jam.

Playing in a higher stakes 3-blind game, defending the straddle against a single 2.5x raise from a very good pro, I'd think the calling range can be widened a bit, to include strong top pairs at a higher frequency, and some better 2nd pairs at a lower frequency, depending on how aggro V is.

So i ended up folding AcKs

I think the call pre is fine , gto mixes at low freq and i also didnt wanna get into a high variance spot oop vs a very good player (i still ended up in one anyway lol)
I think without the Ac i was calling this.

Also there were 3 bad recs at the table which i could get infinite ev from that i opted to fold and lose the 0.2-0.3bb in ev and its not like he was overbluffing these spots.

Probably a bad fold from the comments im reading and from a gto perspective. He never showed what he had and i never asked so we’ll never know i guess.

Call pre is fine but once we do our hand is massively under-repped I don't think I'm folding vs a competent Villain. I would lean towards raising flop followed by some pot controlled turn and river value bets. If he shows further aggression I can probably fold more comfortably

Wow didn't even put AK in your range.

I'd be calling K8+

Yeah i’d argue that K8 or even K4 are better calls then my hand

idc id call. realistically you shouldn't have k8 here much given flop so worrying about if you think its a better call is kind of irrelevant. issue with folding the river imo is if you're the type to fold this, you probably won't have much / any 9x, so basically your calls are going to be confined to idk 98ss and discounted 98o and k9ss exactly. i guess 99 too. seems like a decent sized overfold vs the wrong opponent to do it against

Yeah I think basically I'm not really folding any Kx tbh.

AIUI, this 9-handed, with a UTG straddle (H) and UTG+2 (V) RFI. Isn't 2nd to act PF in this structure, from someone who's studied, insanely tight? I wouldn't expect 44 in it, for example, or a lot of SCs or broadway hands. Maybe I'm wrong?

I'd expect 88+, AQs+, AKo. Accordingly, with that range, and the runout, we're only really concerned about 99 (1), 88(3), KK (3). Maybe AK. Or are all cbets with TP on K84r supposed to be 1/3 at 125 straddles? I would have expected a larger cbet from a pair of Kings, despite how relatively dry the flop was.

With closing the action and, despite being OOP for the rest, getting big IO, I would expect H's range to be much broader. H 'could' have 98, 44, etc..., thought probably not KK. I'm surprised H didn't 3b pf, tbh. Though we're likely folding to a 4, correct?

ppl r going to be looser pre live than charts dictate bc its boring / ego / there's no way people fly across the world to play with american nits to fold pre. also alot of hands that are mixes or low frequency opens become pure opens very quickly if lineup is not tough or someone is stuck or whatever. would also guess (no disrespect intended for op) people will open wider on straddle / bb of people that are perceived to be weaker. also suspect that very few people study 9 handed charts so every position earlier than utg1 6 handed looks exactly the same.

Well now i know why you played coy with your hand. 3 bet pre, as played check raise flop. as played check raise turn. As played call river.

Also the 9 handed charts on gtowizard at least are nonsense cuz the rake means its basically just all blockers because they expect 3! Or fold strats against them, so playability has been given basically zero value.

Why do you check raise the flop and or turn?

My reasoning for playing check call line for 3 streets is basically the old adage of keeping his bluffs in.

But in this case I think it's especially true because we are up against a player who knows he should overbet the turn which will actually be quite wide. And since we're blocking value holding both the K and A that leaves less value hence more bluffs he will have.

So by CRing flop we're missing out on all the turn barrel money and some river money from his unpaired hands.

Also the times he does have an Ace is also bad because we miss out on coolering all his Ace highs. Like if he has AQ and turns an Ace he will think it's the nuts.

Because this is a disconnected board so he's cbetting 100% of his range, so you have to also check raise widely mixing bluffs with value?

Granted, this is tempered by the fact that his range is snug since he's UTG1, but if you have a check raising range, AK is right below your sets.

Yeah I guess for me I wouldn't construct it that way particularly w/ this hand.
I feel like I can still have enough raises w/ the other hands that are available.

And even if you wanted to have no raising range I doubt you'd lose much EV.

Youre likely wayyy overfolding either otf or ott in this spot if you arent C/R or are only C/R 44/88/bluffs.

The bet sizing is small, if hes folding out all his “bluffs” on a 100% cbet then hes way overfolding, he basically has to float your raise wide on this flop. Like… you think hes foldin AQ to a check raise? If you do, then id check raise everything.

Youre probably going to check that turn after c/r flop, and then he can bet into you with the air he floated you with anyway.

I don't get how not CRing would make you over fold the flop as oop?

And specifically not CRing AK.

And how does CRing AK make you more money than not?

I'm open to the idea, but nothing you said is really convincing.

idk, i think floating OOP with very marginal holdings seems bad, and thats the vast majority of your range here. I also think that although balance is discounted, check raising primarily as a bluff on dry boards is something thats pretty noticeable, and only raising 2-3 hands for value means you cant bluff often. you basically have to call or raise at least some with trash hands like JTs with bdfd, and putting AK in your calling range means even more air in your calling range to defend with. Maybe youre finding these calls rather than a raise, fine.

9 with fd comes on the turn and V overbets the turn, and youre supposed to be continuing on that turn bet with hands like T8.

So this is a few podcast episodes I listened to somewhat recently about this exact topic:

This one discussed what hands to C/R on the ever so slightly less wet K83r flop at ~10:20, and it has a c/r with KJ.


https://open.spotify.com/episode/4MS...7tiG6RqrsBh6rK


They did a follow up episode on how to continue ott in this episode, around 17 minutes (although I really didnt like this one as much, because it doesnt really go into detail on how yo approach your more middling value such as OPs hand)

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4UW...Ttm-S5oh5OA7gg

yeah that doesn't really happen much vs ep