See above in red

So what if they don't call? You have ten high, you successfully (semi)bluffed them out.


On the flop, you don't have anything yet.

The way you played this hand is the epitome of passive play. You play soft, hoping to both hit and have someone strong enough to pay you off on a scary board.

The point is this, you just called when your hand was the favorite to win, and then weak bet when your hand was an underdog. Then, when you ended up hitting, you potentially lost value by not getting your stack in...

First of all, sorry for calling you a fool. That wasn't tactful, especially since this is mainly a discussion I'm having because I think this would have been an interesting PAHWM (street by street) long term discussion. I'm just trying to think things out in the whole picture because, let's face it, that's how we can all get better as players.

I mentioned the KT because it's a full on cooler, no ifs ands or buts about it, when the Q comes. Some players get away from 2pr hands that you're hoping to 3-out cooler, especially the weaker one like 97. You can't weigh these things the same, the nuts vs 2nd nuts is a lot different from a possibly marginal 2pr. You don't just magically get a guy's stack added to yours because you caught a straight and he caught 2 pair. That's why I think you can weigh the risk of the KT cooler (nuts v 2nd nuts) equally to the QJ/KQ/97.

Here's another reason to try to get the money in on the flop:

When you see this flop, you are the favorite to win against almost any hand, BUT ONLY IF YOU SEE BOTH THE TURN AND THE RIVER.

By just calling the flop, keeping more people in the hand, you are more likely to get blown off the pot on a bad turn card. Could have EASILY happened with the one which occurred here, and you would have wasted all that equity you had on the flop.

But you played it very very badly, and didn't listen to any of the responses that you got. You never considered math/EV or anything important in your decision-making.

You played a bad hand pre-flop.

You got the best possible flop and you didn't raise.

You got the one of the worst possible turn cards and bet.

Those statements appear to be true to me. As far as i'm concerned, the river decision in this hand is the most trivial (b/f). Honest advice OP, re-evaluate pre flop and the flop.

WEighting KT equally against three other hands is madness. You know how math works right? Moving on....

On the flop, I'm against three opponents with a 50% hand. Definitely a fine place to push. I get it. With AdKd, or 7d8d, I agree, let's go broke.

But our hand is strong enough to slow play...just a LITTLE.

Here are the relevant factors that everyone in this thread seems to be ignoring.

No matter what i do, I expect Villains 1 and 3 to fold alot. Villain 2 is the target. He's the most likely to have a hand. His stack is the most likely source of value for my hand. Villain 1 and 3 are playing clear fit or fold games, and there is definitely money to be had by not blowing 97,QJ,and KQ out of the hand. Also, there are lot of Adx hands I wouldn't mind hanging around, that will defintely fold to a flop raise.

Another relevant factor. We still have BIG equity on the turn. A 55% hand becomes a 35% hand when the turn bricks. Admittedly, that's a big loss. But it's remember, V2 is the target. He only has about $170 left. The pot on the turn, as played is $95. If I bet $40, like I did, and he shoves over me, then it's $130 to call into a pot of $305. That's still a large +EV spot for me.

So i have a sound plan to stack V2, regardless of the turn card. Keeping V3 and/or V1 in the hand is gravy, and as I've discussed at length, there are plenty of holdings they would fold to a raise, but would likely call the flop bet getting giant odds.

Why are we so worried abotu getting blown off of our hand on the turn? We've already discussed that V2 can't, he doesn't have enough chips. Unless he open shoves the turn, but let's just say he's NEVER doing that. He would always choose to CRAI.

V1 is a non factor, I'm leaving him out. He's so ridiculously sloshed, that the physical tells alone are enough to let me play ATC profitably in any situation. I'll deal with him if I need to, but until then, he's just a guy who donated $12.

So what you're all advocating then, is to protect our hand from V3 in case he turns trips. I don't think he goes nuts with two pair since there would likely be obvious straight possibilities if he did make two pair. We'd still get to see the river with good odds, both immediate and implied.

So....to summarize.....everyone wants me to raise this flop so we can steal a little bit of value with ten high by getting weak jacks and nines to fold on the flop, because they might decide to blow us off our hand on the turn? Also to deny them the opportunity to make trips on the turn, because we would puke on the table if we had to fold ten high to an obvious two outer. It's worth sacrificing bigger value later because those two outers ALWAYS seem to come in, right? And everyone thinks I'm chasing unicorns if I want KQ, QJ, JT, Adx, and smaller flush draws to stay in? Is that where we're at?

1) Meh, marginal. the pot is already sorta 3-bet. Very few players and/or hands can raise here. I'm happy to see a flop for $12, with position on the two active players so far.

2) In what universe is ten-high, with a 50/50 chance to hit a draw, usually to the non-nuts, the "best possible flop"

3) After V3 flat calls the flop and V2 checks the turn, I would say I'm in a pretty profitable situation on the turn.

2. Idk man, if you can't recognize that this is basically an A++++ flop for your hand despite the fact that you have ten high (and you should be raising for that reason) then I'm not sure that we can help. The fact that you have so much equity, but aren't drawing to the nuts in a multi-way pot should be a reason to play the FE game and not draw to a potentially 2nd best hand.

3. You now have a (relatively weak) draw three ways OTT on a paired board with little fold equity against Jx or 9x. How excited are you really?

It's not terrible. Especially after V2 checks to me. Once that happens, I can not play the hand -EV against him. I can bet 40 and call his shove profitably and feel pretty good about what happens.

I'm only worried about a straightforward passive player, and a slobbering stupid drunk somehow finding a nutsack and raising trip nines with a weak kicker. More likely though, if htey have trip nines, they'll call and I'll have a really good value bet spot on if I hit the river.

I don't know how this can be explained to you more clearly.

You played the flop badly. Several different people on this thread have told you that, and none have supported your play. Perhaps you should swallow a bit of that ego and consider you might be wrong.