Just got done playing this hand and I'm writing this from the casino.

Hero is playing in a $1/$2 game. Casino's poker room is crowded as a large tournament ($2.2k buyin) is on and those who got knocked out have joined the cash games. Hero has been playing TAG, occassionally bluffing and getting away with it. Has shown down one hand that was the nuts (flopped nut flush, checked to river, bet and call from villain holding Q-high flush that made it on river). Villain is a crazy Indian guy who's preflop calling range is incredibly wide and who has a penchant for being a station-fish. No history with villain, but in the 2hrs at the table i have seen him take down a pot with K-high, yes K-HIGH after calling a stone-cold bluff.

Hero starts hand with $325. Villain with $170. Folded to villain in MP who limps, folded to hero on the button who looks down at 910 and bets $15. Blinds fold, villain calls, HU to flop.

Flop: A2J (pot: $33)

Villain donks out $10, hero stares down villain for abt a minute before raising to $45. At this point i chose to semi-bluff as i believed i had FE from any non A-x holding. Villain flats.

Turn: 10 (pot: $123)

Villain checks. I check behind. At this stage I was ready to give up the pot as i didnt think villain was laying-down any pair (unless of course i made my flush).

River: 9 (pot: $123)

Villain bets $85. Hero??

One of 2 things happened.

1) He has a jack or a weak ace and your check on the turn after the raise on the flop looks like a draw, so the brick on the river triggered a value bet.

2) He has a jack or a weak ace and your check on the turn looks like a draw. His kicker is a 9.

Since 1 is more likely than 2, call.

I know it seems unreliable, but from previous bet-sizing patterns villain has tended to bet >1/2 pot with 'big hands' and <1/2 pot with bluffs/random pairs

I guess he coulda slow played KQ on the turn, but from your post I gather that this guy is pretty good at reading hands (successfully calling bluffs with K high and slow playing till he properly gets paid)

This hand is a little different because you played it like a flush draw or a weak pair all the way (as did he) and he bet the river when the flush missed. There is no way he can put you on 2 pair there so if he has a weak ace, he is betting it like he bets his strong hands, not like a weak hand or bluff.

Actually the guys is a maniac/spewtard who called with k-high just becos he was up $400 after sucking out a lot. Against TAGs/regs i would be more inclined to fold to this size bet on the river after and this line

i think i'd pay this off. i think he shows up with a big A enough that your two pair are good. you have to win this, what, 4 out of 10 times? he could have two pair and have you crushed.

he doesn't have the nuts unless he has exactly Kc Qc. I don't see how he can call your flop raise with a gutshot unless he's got the flush draw to go with it.

isnt this ghosting?

First I want to ask why you raised his limp with a hand that has the tendancy to play pretty good multiway if you hit the flop. No reason in ISO-ing with a hand like that.

I like the check behind ott, if the turn was a Q or K I'd def barrel it given you have iso'd him.

The river is a crying call. Your hand looks like a missed draw or a middle A. You could catch him donking with a weak ace or good J. I'd be more afraid of Jx that hit the turn or river than a Ax that hit the turn or the river.

It wasn't multi-way, with only one limper when it came to me on the button. Obviously i would rather take it down pre-flop with my nit image. But i dont think raise pre is bad, i needed to vary my opening range from the button as i was getting little action from players paying attention, plus its a little pot-sweetener so when i connect nicely with the flop the pot is already nice and large. Finally, i was confident i could out-manouevre the station-fish limper in post-flop play.

But on that river i have to agree, it seemed like JT,J9 type hands improved. But with the guys crazy tendencies, is it best to call? (first instinct was to shove for value against the guy, his range was really wide, then i realised that was ******ed)

Preflop is ok. If you get it HU you can value bet 2nd pair against this guy and you will have position. If the blinds come along, you have a hand that plays well multiway, provided that they have decent sized stacks, in position.

I don't get the flop raise. This is a calling station you're dealing with. Take the awesome odds he is giving you and lol when he pays your flush off.

I also don't understand your thinking on the turn. If Villain won't lay down any pair, then you might be able to bet the turn for value. Checking is probably right because you likely don't have 50% equity when called. I don't have poker stove here at work, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was close.

On the river I think the issue is shove or call, not call or fold. You beat top pair and he has a wide calling range. In fact, I would be surprised if he folded anything that he bothered to bet. I would be curious to see a stove, and I would include hands like 92s and T2s in his range.

(BTW, in the previous hand I don't think I'd ever slowplay the flopped nut flush. We miss value from those chasing their high flush card and plus could easily have all our action vs lottsa hands killed when a 4th flush card comes.)

I'm so-so with the preflop raise. Usually with one limper to me on the button and tight blinds, I like the raise, but this is more against a fit/fold flop player who'll let me c-bet any flop, take it down, and buy a hot dog. This guy ain't that player. So against calling stations, I might just limp and value town when I flop a hand.

OP, read your own notes on the villain. He's a calling station. Our FE is 0 here. We're getting great odds to chase our flush draw against a calling station who'll probably easily stack off if we hit it. I call.

I like the check behind on the turn. Again, against a calling station we have no FE here and it is unlikely our hand is currently best.

If I've counted right, the villain only has $25 left. In which case, I shove cuz no Ax hand is folding. Heck, this guy ain't folding Jx for this amount. It's definitely possible we run into a bigger two pair here some of the time (or some ******o straight), but my guess is that our two pair is good enough of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1 to not understanding the flop raise when you've described this player as someone who will call down with anything and pay you off on the river if you hit.

As played I lean towards a fold but it's close. You could argue there are enough one-pair hands in his range to call if villain is as bad as you say, but villain donking the river sets off major warning bells.

Others already pointed this out, I am just supplementing OP's own quotes:

You saw this guy calling a bet on the river with K-high, and yet you still think he would fold unless he has Ax?

As for the hand, you're probably beat. But if you're folding at this spot, you're unlikely going to get much out of this whale in the session.

No, for those asking why i raised flop with 0 FE, its because i was building pot for a shove if i made my flush, if i flat here, brick turn and action goes c/c and make my flush on river a shove might look suspicious.

Also, big papa, all ur compatriots are maniacs, havnt come across a single solid indian:L

That is a good point and might push this from a marginal fold to a marginal call..

If you call (or shove as GG suggests) and are best you've gotten max value. If you call and are shown two bigger pair as I suspect you will, you keep the ATM in the game. You should have ample opportunity to get your money back with interest from this player by end of the session (as long as someone else doesn't beat you to it ).

Pot after calling the flop raise will be $50 and villain will only have $145 left + he's a calling station = no reason to build pot cuz he'll stack off regardless.

That wasn't exactly the point I was making. The point is, this guy obviously doesn't know how to play, and thus 2 pairs are pretty darn good in most spots. This is one of such spot, and if you're laying down here, you're going to be laying down a lot of similar spots. Against villains like this one, you won't be making a lot of money if you're laying down hands in these spots.

Actually 2 pair is where I see fish and "regs" spew the most chips in LLSNL by far. IMO holding 2 pair on the river in full ring is a "meh" spot you are much better off looking for spots to punish fish when they over-play their 2 pair - here you have backed into 2 low pair and villain can easily have 2 bigger. Even a bad villain is not calling the flop raise with out at least one pair and he certainly isn't donking the river with a hand like J5...

In fact in this pot if villain had checked the river it's not even a clear value bet for Hero... the only hand that villain may call with which we beat is Ax.

I'm not looking for spots to call against fish on the river. I'm looking for spots to bet or raise and get called - there is a very big difference.

So you're saying you won't bet 2 pairs in most spots for value, unless it's top 2 or better?

Your overall thought process is like most nits. You might make some money here and there, but never enough to move up.

No not making a universal statement on two pair... Even in this spot I'm not saying I definitely wouldn't bet it; just that it's not an insta-bet. I'll bet 2 pair for value often:

- if I think it's the best hand
AND
- it can be called by worse

Or in other words, when it's +EV. Here, it is not clearly +EV. Just because "villain is bad lol" does not make it a clear call or bet. In fact "villain is bad lol" is a good reason to fold to a bet because bad villains don't usually donk or raise the river without the goods.

Depending on how wide a range you put villain on to call the flop raise this may be a +EV spot if you stove it - but I think it would be close. I don't think a call is particularly bad here. However, there will be much better spots to felt this guy than backing into two low pair...

No offense but "we haz 2 pairz! lol! - bet/call!" is the thought proces of most fish.

I'm probably guilty of this.

But here, we're playing a crazy calling station tournament player ("I has a pair therefore I has the nuts". Two pair is a great hand against this guy.

This is a fair point. But Hero checked behind on the turn and Villain could easily think that top pair is good here. I wouldn't credit Villain with understanding that it is basically impossible for Hero to call with a worse hand.

imo his bet on the river is not a bluff against your image and this board. sure this guy is a station, but I would be really surprised if V is betting $85 with only $25 behind with a hand worse than T9. even the fishiest fishcakes know that a bet of $100+ is psychologically heavier than -$100. therefore I would expect to see lots of two pair/straight combos here. when he calls your raise OTF, he checked the turn hoping for a c/r, and when that failed, he went for a lead OTR. I don't like your raise on the flop at all. he's calling with a wide range and leaves you in guessing games when you brick out. I know it seems weak to fold here, but I'm not really seeing alot of hands he has that you beat. a big A I think would have bet the turn, a weak A would check the river, and I'm not sold this guy is betting a dry J on the river like this.

Is he one of the players who played in the 2.2k tournament? This is important IMO. (Steaming/way smaller than usual buy in doesn't care about the money w/e) maybe that's why he made a K-high call. Maybe he's making stupid bluffs and just having fun? Anyways, I think you should snap this river.

OK, stoved it.

Starting with a super wide 60%+ range to limp/call and given that villain:
- called a flop raise
- checked the turn
- donked the river

OTR:

Villian: {JJ-TT, 22, AJs-A2s, KQs, KcJc, QcJc, J9s+, J2s, AJo-A2o, KQo, J9o+
}

We are 52.2% against this range. I played around with it and best you can hope for is 60ish% if you were to add all other club draws, KJo, QJo.

I think this is thin at best given that we have a bad player leading into us on the river and only leaving $25 behind...

Thin for a raise, but clearly we have more than the ~30% equity we need to call this.