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Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker.

02-19-2012 , 04:17 PM
I like how this thread is going.

Most games I play are bad and deep enough so that I never limp on most of my tables.

I'm not sure how good is l/c TT from EP ... :/

And also what is better: playing 10BI of 50 BB, or 5BI of 100BB? (Games are really weak, fwiw).
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-19-2012 , 04:43 PM
Basically have him watch all videos and read any literature written by Phil Hellmuth.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-19-2012 , 04:59 PM
I guess this is called level?
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-19-2012 , 05:07 PM
I might be talking out of my ass but I've heard it said (by good players) that while Phil Hellmuth is a huge fish at NLHE and PLO he is actually a solid limit player
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-19-2012 , 05:24 PM
he needs to get burned a few times to really drive the concepts home.. in other words, he needs experience

range an opponent's hand so you can have a good idea of what they're going to do..

also helps to know how many streets of value you're typically going to get from certain hands.. like usually 2 streets with TPGK+, or 3 streets+ with sets.. etc. and then playing in such a way that you get the maximal value from your hand (without going too far and overrepping)

and of course.. position and being aggressive are probably the most key
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-19-2012 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer
Nitty is a good beginning strategy, so all of you saying this is a nitty starting hand selection are complimenting OP on a job well done I'm assuming.
Yeah nothing wrong with learning the game as a nit. Playing fewer hands has a helpful side effect of allowing more time to observe the action. Being engaged in hands you're not playing is a really important skill that i feel many beginners overlook. If you can get him to understand that he should treat every session as a learning opportunity, I think that will help. Seeing other players make mistakes and learning to range effectively is great practice.

Short stacking also has a few benefits for inexperienced players:

1. Limits risk. This assumes he also sets a stop-loss.

2. As you mentioned doubles the # of buyins he can make with a smaller roll. Gives a new player enough time to climb the learning curve before reaching breakeven with less risk of busting.

3. 50 BBs forces you to play tighter. He will chip down very fast if he plays every sooted hand he is dealt.

4. Makes postflop play easier by playing fewer streets. He has to understand that most commitment decisions will be made OTF and sometimes even preflop. As he becomes more comfortable with making good postflop decisions, he can play deeper and learn the nuances of playing the later streets.

You should let him know, if he is not yet aware of it, about the gap concept.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 12:01 AM
tell him to stick to his day job, poker is a terrible game and will leave him hating his life forever
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji08
tell him to stick to his day job, poker is a terrible game and will leave him hating his life forever
this is the only good advice itt

tell him if he wants to play poker to play low stakes mtt's
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
this is the only good advice itt

tell him if he wants to play poker to play low stakes mtt's
a) none available

b) why so?
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 03:57 AM
Game plan doesn't change that much with 10s as other hands. Good boards to cbet, bad boards we need to just c/f.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 04:18 AM
Is it going to be profitable? With TT EP we'll see too many overcards with too many people left to act, no?
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcebro
A friend of mine recently asked me for help.

He is a young recreational player, with a day job, but he loves poker and wants to transist from slightly loosing to better than breakeven category. He plays the usual recreative player style - way too loose, partialy agressive but often in wrong places, bad to no ranging, etc.

He is also a bit underrolled for $1/2, so he can only comfortably play 50BB Buy-ins.


My advice is:
Nit up, be patient and learn.
Be aggressive.
Never open limp.
Fold most, raise some, call few.
No bluffing, except for cbeting good boards.
-
While not in hand, pay attention, try to put people on ranges, watch betsizing, shown hands.
-
In hand
Before each action take time to think over all options and give a sound answer why you are chosing a) b) or c)
Pay attenrion to pot size and stack size, size bets in relation to PSR.
-
Away from the table
Analyse sessions.
Read good books (Harrington is OK to start with, I guess?).

On starting hand ranges:
Does anyone have an idea how nitty can you play, without missing value? I mean what is the nittiest, yet sane, range for every position? Like is AQo always playable, even ep?

I think of suggesting following range:
EP: AQ+, QQ+.
MP: AJ+, KQ, TT+.
LP: ATs+, AJo+, KQo, suited broadways, 88+.
Blinds: AQ+, TT+.

Does this sound good to begin with?
This is very good advice. Given that he is a relatively inexperienced player, it's very important that we understand that he will not be able to play anywhere close to optimally. Is he losing value by tightening up his hand range? Technically, yes. However, for an inexperienced player to maximize his/her success I recommend a very basic strategy that is easily implemented. As he improves as a player, then his strategy will change but for now he should keep it very basic. Also, a nit strategy is lower variance which is needed if he has a smaller than expected bankroll.

I would just add 2 very basic pieces of advice because as a beginner player quite often you are in a lot of spots where you simply don't know what to do :

1) If you don't know if you should play a particular hand or not, nit it up (ie you have AQ and it's the best hand you've had in a long time but there is action ahead of you and you think maybe it's the best hand but it's really close, just fold)

2) If you don't know if you should put your chips in the middle on the river against a fish, just do it. I'm continually amazed at what these recreational 2/5 players will bluff with, value bet with and call with. It absolutely blows my mind how bad they are and 1/2 players are even worse.

Finally, I would just like to further emphasize being the aggressor. The starting hand chart is primarily a tool to let you know what to open raise with. If you use that chart simply as a list of hands to play, you will just become a nitty donkey. If someone raises from EP and you have AJ in MP or LP, for a beginner this should be a fold and never a call.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 07:50 AM
Pretty good advice for a beginner. I would add to always think about hands and how you could have played them better, especially the ones raised preflop. And bet sizing is one of the most underrated yet important aspects of poker so always be thinking about your bet sizes and what that size is meant to accomplish.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twofingerted
Lol at the blind ranges dude. Tell him to start playing alot and always trying to make the correct play. Losing money should be a good tutor if he really wants to learn.

If you run KJo in EP into something better like twenty times he won't forget to not play that hand in EP etc.
were you sober when you posted this ?
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 09:02 AM
given the beginner's bankroll issues, playing a short-stack is far and away the most effective way for him to learn. i'd reccommend he start with 30 to 40 bb to start.

the biggest mistakes at $1/$2 and $2/$5 are simply playing too many hands. the beginner needs to learn this now and later learn the circumstances when he can open his range.

i would suggest the op describe the hand ranges of typical low stakes players and how they play postflop. i.e. create player profiles of a generic nature. if he pays attention he should develop a general feel for hand reading.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 11:38 AM
grunch

Dont tell him anything or have him read anything.

Rec noobs have a hard time bridging advice / words on a page with what theyre doing at the table.

Instead tell him to play his normal game, and every session record a few key hands he played. Tell him to do this accurately.

Then go over each hand with him. Break down mathematically why his limpcalling J9s utg is wrong. Why he didnt have the right odds to call the turn w/ that OESD. Why this villian in this spot was never folding. Start making him think about handreading and process of elimination range contruction. Bring pokerstove and other resources into it when applicable. Introduce him to what a poker work ethic is like.

He'll have an easier time understanding concepts and making certain connections if his study starts out rooted in his actual play. Slowly he should start to get that poker isnt about making money, it's about ev, which is a tough lesson for a casual player to get into his nerve-endings.

Your Friend has fun playing poker. If he wants to get better youre going to have to completely ruin that for him. Then see if he still wants it.

Last edited by SeeThomasHowl; 02-20-2012 at 11:44 AM.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeThomasHowl
grunch

Dont tell him anything or have him read anything.

Rec noobs have a hard time bridging advice / words on a page with what theyre doing at the table.

Instead tell him to play his normal game, and every session record a few key hands he played. Tell him to do this accurately.

Then go over each hand with him. Break down mathematically why his limpcalling J9s utg is wrong. Why he didnt have the right odds to call the turn w/ that OESD. Why this villian in this spot was never folding. Start making him think about handreading and process of elimination range contruction. Bring pokerstove and other resources into it when applicable. Introduce him to what a poker work ethic is like.

He'll have an easier time understanding concepts and making certain connections if his study starts out rooted in his actual play. Slowly he should start to get that poker isnt about making money, it's about ev, which is a tough lesson for a casual player to get into his nerve-endings.

Your Friend has fun playing poker. If he wants to get better youre going to have to completely ruin that for him. Then see if he still wants it.
i wish i had written this. dammit.
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 02:16 PM
using actual hands played is an excellent way to learn, a type of inductive reasoning approach

far better is a deductive reasoning approach; teach the friend the general case then
use actual hands and explain why they confirm the general "rules" of abc poker or why the particular hand he played may be an exception
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote
02-20-2012 , 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeThomasHowl
grunch

Dont tell him anything or have him read anything.

Rec noobs have a hard time bridging advice / words on a page with what theyre doing at the table.

Instead tell him to play his normal game, and every session record a few key hands he played. Tell him to do this accurately.

Then go over each hand with him. Break down mathematically why his limpcalling J9s utg is wrong. Why he didnt have the right odds to call the turn w/ that OESD. Why this villian in this spot was never folding. Start making him think about handreading and process of elimination range contruction. Bring pokerstove and other resources into it when applicable. Introduce him to what a poker work ethic is like.

He'll have an easier time understanding concepts and making certain connections if his study starts out rooted in his actual play. Slowly he should start to get that poker isnt about making money, it's about ev, which is a tough lesson for a casual player to get into his nerve-endings.

Your Friend has fun playing poker. If he wants to get better youre going to have to completely ruin that for him. Then see if he still wants it.
And with that additional study, he can turn his focus on just making good poker decisions at the table.

Once he begins making rational decisions, the $$ improvement takes care of itself over the long haul.

So maybe he can cross the threshold to breakever or maybe a little bit better.

That's all a rec player should expect, especially with a tiny bankroll, imo
Recreational player asking for advice to start playing sound poker. Quote

      
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