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Originally Posted by SABR42
The problem with this logic is that I DON'T want a game where 8 BB raises are typical for the table.
Its a Shame, you are missing tons of value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
The problem with this logic is that I DON'T want a game where 8 BB raises are typical for the table.
When most players I play with only have 100 BB or less, I don't want to turn the game into a pre-flop game. That goes against where my edge is..
We should be happy to play ANY SPOT where we have an edge and one of the absolute BIGGEST leaks LLSNL rec fish have is in their preflop game. So your discomfort with pushing your preflop edge is costing you incredible value post flop. Because when our villains make a preflop mistake (i.e. calling a raise with an RIO hand) the magnitude of their mistakes are GEOMETRIC!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Again, if your game is full of players like this, then sure, nit it up and overbet your monsters. When most of the player pool does not play like this, your simple strategy of "wait for KK and then raise 10BB" doesn't work so well...
Talk about missing out on opportunity and value. You don't have to "nit it up" and wait for KK, all you have to do is ensure your range is ahead of your villains. If my villain's calling range is SCs, suited gapers, Axs, Kxs, 22+, then I can profitably raise 10bb pre with JT+, 88+. This isn't opinion, this is mathematical fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Again, I don't WANT to play at a table where a 7-8BB raise is standard, because it would force me to play like a nit and kill my ability to play marginal hands that have implied odds, and get into more pots with players who are terrible post-flop..
You have the wrong mindset about all this. Being able to raise 8bb gives you enormous power and flexibility in manipulating your opponents. You can adjust your raise sizing vs position from 2bb - 8bb giving you a more dynamic range and ability to manipulate situations based on image, position, villain tendencies, etc. You can still play SCs, Suited gapers, Axs and use implied odds, position, etc. Its just that being "able" to raise up to 8bb (or more) allows you to BETTER exploit your villains.
Have no idea why you can't see this. You seem to be so rigid and inflexible in your thinking on how poker should be played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
My pre-flop raises are intended to strike a balance between gaining initiative, getting value, creating post-flop FE, and disguising my relatively wide range..
You can do the same by having a more dynamic raising range from 3bb - 8bb. Again, its not like an 8bb raise is compulsory, but having the ability to raise 8bb vs villains that will call your 8bb raise just as soon as they'd call a 3bb raise is an enormous point of value you are missing out on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Of course, but most players tend to suck worse post-flop even more than pre-flop.
This is not always true. There are some players who suck worse post flop than preflop. But there are some players who suck preflop more than post. And again, mistakes in poker are geometric so by pushing your preflop edge you end up with more value post flop and that increased value is geometric. A 4bb increase in the preflop raise can result in a 20bb+ increase in the value you extract from villain by the river. And i'm not talking about stack offs, simply betting each street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
They call when they should fold, call when they should raise, raise when they should call, etc... By making large raises pre-flop you kill your own ability to make plays post-flop and turn the game into waiting for big pairs and then shoving the flop.
This is straight from the 1980s school of poker and is just wrong. 100bb is plenty enough for us to maneuver post flop. If our raising range is greater than V's calling range and we have position on V then we can raise ANY amount preflop and it will be profitable. And this goes DOUBLE for if we have a post-flop edge vs our villains.
I mean, I just don't get how you don't see how flawed your argument is? How in the world is it not profitable to get our villains to call for more than their hand is worth preflop when our range crushes theirs and when our postflop edge is greater than theirs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
If you play in soft enough games this may work, but it's still not optimal.
Its not about whether the game is soft or not. Its whether you are the better player or not and better able to exploit and adjust to the table dynamics.
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Originally Posted by SABR42
Post this in any of the online forums and you'd get laughed out of there.
ANd this is why many online players don't do as well in the live game because they are too rigid in their thinking about how poker should be played and they don't properly adjust to live villains. They lose value because they cannot properly comprehend just how terribad some of our live villains are.
All i'm advocating is exploiting our villains leaks. And one of our villains' biggest leaks is preflop. But you don't want to exploit that leak, you just want to focus on the post flop leaks??? And this is a leak on your part because preflop mistakes will result in a geometric increase in value post flop. And if we have the postflop edge (as you claim) then that is even better news for us.