This is not at all a standard, trivial fold.

This

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vs the specific player (MP) it felt rather easy, combined with the added chance that one of the two had it...

but yeah I can see that perhaps as a forum post it does not appear so, as opposed to actually being there.

I would have called with QTss there personally...

CLIFFNOTES: At first glance this is a deceivingly hard decision, but once you really think about it, this is actually a trivial fold and belongs in this thread. My evolution of thought process from hard fold to trivial fold is below

Not trying to pile on, but this is not a trivial fold. There is exactly only ONE hand in MP's range that beats us and we have 9 outs to scoop this and 3 outs (ace assuming V has an Ace) to chop and a decent chance we are up against Tx and free rolling. The problem here is the chip stack depth and being effectively 400bb deep. This is how it works against us because for most of us, the only way we are ever shoving 400bb deep is if we have the stone cold nuts...

To be honest, this is a tough decision. CO is snap call, easy, but that is effectively 1/2 our stack and if MP ships over the top of that we can't fold after putting in 1/2 our money but on the flip side if we shove all-in MP will call X% of the time with Tx or a set Y% of the time though X & Y would be debatable as to how big each parameter is...

I think this is right on the line between shipping and folding and definitely an interesting spot given that we are 400bb deep. So, it doesn't quite fit in this thread since its not a trivial fold by any stretch of the imagination. The only way this is a trivial fold is if MP is a super scared money super nit. And that wasn't in the OP. As described, MP would take this line w Tx and there is only one combo of Tx that beats us. However, putting in all of our money "hoping" to chop isn't a winning strategy, the problem is we have 9 outs to outright win...

Adding everything together, I think this is a puke fold due to just being so deep. But not a trivial fold by any stretch.

A better way to think about this hand is to just forget about us having the straight because effectively, we are chopping that bad boy 3 ways. We are drawing for the flush and just don't have the odds to draw with one card coming for stacks. That is what this hand boils down to, so the more I think about it, the more it is a fold.

And perhaps this hand does belong in this thread. The more I think about this, the more it is a clear 100% fold.

Villain is never shoving here without a T, other villain is never betting out without a T. So in effect, we are talking about playing for stacks 400bb deep with just one card coming... The chop is "trap" to entice us to think we are freerolling when the reality is we are not freerolling, in fact, just the opposite. The reality is we are DRAWING and if we completely remove the fact that we had the straight and say our hand was something like Q5 would we ever consider shoving here for 400bb??? HELL NO. I submit that QT is actually no different than Q5 in this spot.

And so this is a fold. In fact, now I like the hand/post. I initially got blinded by the shiny "chop" when in reality it is not a chop, its a trap with a nice big piece of cheese that is laced with cyanide and arsenic.

I think that hand should actually be its own thread

I agree with your logic, but I don't agree that it's a "trivial" fold (and therefore does not belong in this thread).

It's a "clear" fold (and probably a "puke" fold as well), after going through a bunch of logic that most of us can't do at the table (or can't do well, yet).

Yeah, my long-term thought is fold due to stacks, but it's not like a snap fold, it's a sit there for a minute and figure it out kind of hand.

$2/3 NL

Villain is your typical loose-passive low limit player, limp calls a lot of hands PF, overvalues one pair hands, and rarely raises.

Villain has ~$350, hero covers

one limper, villain limps, hero raises to $15 on the button with TJ, villain calls

Flop ($33): TJ3

Villain donks $10, Hero raises to 40, villain calls

Turn ($113): 6

Villain takes a stack of chips, moves them toward the betting line, then stares and hero and checks

Hero bets $100, Villain instantly throws a stack in and matches hero's bet

River ($313): 8

Villain snap shoves for his last $200. Hero folds.

Hero is a tourist and looks like one. Played for an hour and up 20bb without showing any cards. Generating a loose image with his late opens and isoing limpers. Hero has also been saying "call" rather than "check" when in the BB . In CO with AJs.

Villain is a young reg with deep stack. In HJ.

Game 5/10, $1200 effective

Folds to villain who limp $10, hero raise $40, folds to villain who splash $180. Hero folds.

Villain either thinks hero is loose enough to call that huge value raise when he is being dominated, or the villain is bluff raising too big and hero don't need to defend as wide or as often.

1/2 tonight at the local casino. Entire table is passive, with the exception of V1, who is LAG and the best player at the table, in my estimation. V2 is tight and solid. I have been playing very tight, and V1 has remarked something to this effect. Both Vs are aware enough to notice my image. The two Vs seem to have quite a bit of history with each other, but neither has played with me before tonight. Hero has ~330 to begin this hand. V2 covers Hero with 400, and V1 had been bouncing around from 600-900 ever since I sat down, so he has us both covered.

Hero picks up QQ UTG and makes it 10 to go. It folds around to V1 in CO who calls. V1 could call with a really wide range here, but he's definitely raising anything that's ahead of me, so I'm feeling good about his call.

V2 quickly pops it to 95(!), his first 3 bet since I sat down. I insta-muck, as does V1, who claims he had 99.

2/5


Hero (BN @ 750) - Mid-30s. Nitty TAG.

V1 (UTG @ 500) - Mid-20s. FPS.

V2 (MP @ Covers) - Standard 60s: tight, passive, and highly readable.


V1 limps. V2 bets 25. Folds to me and I make it 65 with AA. Raise size was a little lower because V2 would likely be blown off most of his holdings with a standard 3b size. V1 calls. V2 calls.

Flop (200): Q T 8

V1 leads 65. V2 calls. Hero folds relatively quickly.


Now, my thinking was that V1's limp/call of a 3b was indicative of AK/QQ/JJ/TT, with V2 sharing that range plus some premium suited connectors and most pocket pairs. V1's flop lead, which was the same size as my 3b, smacked of a bet that wants to be raised or a horribly played AK/AQ that is crying for a fold, whereas V2 smelled like a set or a strong draw (with the bottom of his range being AKo).

I think most LLSNLers would either raise/jam here or call and get stuck on the turn if a brick falls. To be sure, it's often not easy folding AA on most boards to a small flop lead, but...

What am I ahead of? Or if I am ahead, feel free to count all the turns and rivers that I'll hate if I raise and they call/jam. Or even worse, count all the turns that I'll like after calling and still have zero clue where I am when V1 and V2 are sure to show action. There is a massive chasm that lies between the absolute value of my hand and the relative value.

So...


Turn (335): Brick

V1 bets. V2 jams. V1 calls.

River (1070): Brick

V1 turns over AA. V2 turns over 88. V2 scoops. V1 draws the strings on his hoodie a little tighter.

Revisit ur notes on V2, he's a fish

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I think I get it in vs V1, but V2s call is super strong here, i mean it's a 3bet pot... V2s line is what scares me... V1 FPS won't lead with a monster, c/r makes the hoodie even cooler... Nh hero

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Fair enough, but I didn't know it until that hand.

Terrible play with KK gets me an easy laydown

Villain had about $130 and was limping into every single pot. He would even calls raises pf and stay a bit too long with a hand post flop. But I had not once seen him raise preflop.

I had about $150. I'm a bit tight, and had recently made a few pfr (which wasn't the table norm) with hands like TT and AQ.

Villain in UTG+1 makes it $12 (at a 1/2 table). Everyone folds to me. Here's my first mistake: I flat, instead of 3bet, OTB. I do this because I have not once seen him raise preflop. But a 3bet here probably is always better with KK. All else fold.

(No flushes possible on board, therefore no suits shown)

Flop: Q J 8

Absolutely beautiful. I don't beat QQ or JJ or 88 anymore. He checks. I check, because I'm a bit weary.

Turn: 7

Another awful card. Check-check.

River: 9

And I don't beat any pocket pair anymore. He bets something like $25, I snap-fold. He shows, of course, TT. And that is a prime example of how to NOT play KK on the button.

Man...you played that about as horribly as you possibly could have.

lol.. yea I don't understand checking flop/turn. But more horrible would be calling off on the river.

ah, fear. My #1 enemy at the table.

Yeah lol I know. It was fear honestly since he hadn't raised preflop or really shown much aggression at all despite being in almost every hand. Plus, there had already been AA v KK once at the table tonight. But yeah, it was absolutely butchered of a hand.

Had an interesting hand take place last night vs a mid 30s Asian girl who is an ABC Level 1 player with no concept of raise sizing, pot odds, or relative strength vs absolute strength

She plays by the book and raises exactly 3 x the amount no matter the situation.

Case in point, Hero is in BB with 85, effective stacks $800, villain covers. We are the two big stacks at the table, everyone else is at $200 - $400.

UTG straddles for $10, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, LP calls, V in CO raises to $30, I call from BB, everyone else calls, 6-way action.

Flop($180) K 2 6
Hero chks, (body language of all villains seem weak) chks around to V who bets $40, folds to Hero who makes it $115, folds around to V who tank calls.

Turn($410) 2
Hero bets $200, V tanks and says, "You have KQ?" and calls

River($810) 3
Hero goes all-in for $470-ish, V sonic boom fist pump insta-snap calls and jumps up from her seat and slams down (in her mind) the stone cold nuts!!!!!



Hero turns over 85 and the look of dejection is just all over her face. She says, "But I raised $30 preflop, how could you call with 85, I thought you had AK or KQ!" She almost looks like she wants to cry and the entire table starts talking about how its an easy fold on turn for her but then I jump to her defense saying, "No, I could be bluffing there, I bluffed earlier, its a good call because I would play KQ that exact same way, yada yada yada...(FFS when will people stop berating fish)"

Analysis.

In her mind, poker is SUPPOSED to be played a certain way, you raise 3 x when you have AK, AA, KK, QQ and if you have TPTK or an overpair then you have a really strong hand no matter what the board is. She had zero ability to think beyond level 1 nor access the situation in terms of absolute strength vs relative strength. The fact that I'm shipping $800 on a flush paired board never enters her mind. All she thinks is "I have AA, AA is the best hand!!!!"

Also wanted to point out that there is always the possibility we value own ourselves. I put her range as AK, AQ, AA, KK. So about 30% of the time in this spot I value own myself. However, the other 70%-ish of the time I stack her. The problem I see many thinking players have is they often lose value in these sorts of situations thinking, "What if V has the nuts!!!!"

We have to be cognizant of what type of villain we are up against. Against a nit, I'm never making this play because a nit is never calling with a hand I beat. But a fish or donk that doesn't understand relative strength vs absolute strength, we can shove these types of hands for max value...

Anyways, her AA was a super easy fold in this spot.

nh, well said about getting max value even when you sometimes value town yourself.

what was your reasoning for c/r the flop? you said everyone else looked weak so you don't have to worry about anyone overcalling, and if she isn't cbetting with air into multiple opponents, you probably have zero fe.

was it to build the pot if you hit? bc with her description you could probably get it in regardless of the c/r.

First hand on table of unknowns. Hero is UTG+2. UTG straddles to 5, folds to hero. Hero makes 20, every one folds, straddler stares down Hero and folds. Next hand, hero still utg+2 as new guy comes in BB. Same guy straddles, UTG+1 limps. Hero looks at AK bumps it to 25, folds to OMC who thinks a bit and makes it 75. Folds to hero. Hero folds.

Against someone else I would have 4bet shoved (my stack was little short of 200). Here, my best case is flipping against QQ which he may do at most 50% of time, else he has KK+. Even if I'm deluded to think he does with all QQ I have only 30% equity and is still an easy fold.

OMC even if getting frustrated or thinking I'm raising light will still only flat with a very strong range. His 3-bet range is still mostly KK+ even if he thinks I'm a maniac.

I wanted to take the initiative/control on the flop while it was cheaper to do so. If I just called flop was pretty sure a few more villains could come along for the ride and I wasn't sure if my flush draw was the only one. Also, if I just call and check to her on bricked turns was pretty sure she might blow me off my hand. My plan was three-fold

#1 Take the initiative/control
#2 Build the pot
#3 Define my other villains hands

Based on table dynamics, if any of the other villains called my c/r or re-raised me then I knew my FD was garbage and i'm facing a better FD high % of the time. Even though I read everyone for weak, you never know who is giving off the false tell. But the betting/calling never lies

I had planned to throw a blocking bet of $75 on turn if I missed and to bet around $200 if I hit. Obviously this is super exploitable by any decent thinking player but I don't worry about getting exploited by fish. As luck would have it, I hit bingo on turn and felt super good when she didn't reship (which i'm 95% sure she would have it she had KK)

Once she calls the $200 on turn, I know she is never folding river. All I have to do is fade a heart on river and boom-da-boom stack attack!!!!

your call preflop is atrocious.