The trap of 2+2 is that we sometimes end up posting hands that are so difficult or EV neutral that even among us pros and semi-pros we can be in disagreement on what the optimal line is based on the tiniest difference of opinion on ranges, images, etc.

However, the vast majority of LLSNL decisions aren't overly complicated. I started a thread CLICK HERE that was comprised of typical donkalicious hands in which the fish are fish, the donks are donks, and the money is easy...

I wanted to do a companion thread that follows the same theme--that is, easy money decisions. Specifically, I want to look at situations in which Hero has a BIG HAND but is facing a situation in which he can make an EASY LAYDOWN. The situation should also be one in which the typical donk or fish WOULD NOT make the laydown.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A MAGICAL GUT SOUL READING THREAD

Please follow the same posting format to include villain descriptions, table dynamics, and you should also include your analysis of the hand and give your comments on how/why this represents a Big Hand but Easy Laydown situation.

PUT A TITLE ON YOUR REPLY so that it will be easy to distinguish the various hands that comprise this thread.

So this will serve as both an example thread and a teaching thread.

And for the purposes of this thread, you can include hands you were not a part of but just witnessed. Also, hands do not have to be epic stack offs. Getting away from a big hand early is just as valuable as stacking a donk for 100bb.

The Old Crusty Nit With A World War II Hat On Says "Lets Gamble."

2/5 NLHE

I arrived at the table at 4pm on a Friday, it's around 7pm now, and I've seen this old guy with a World War II hat only play a few hands.

The poker goober kid with the headphones and sunglasses is on the button and he has been active. He's been pushing the action and I would consider him the table captain. From what I've seen he's actually a solid player as well, not just trying to look the part.

The Nit is sitting with 1k, Poker Goober covers.

Nit limps in from UTG, an unknown who just sat down cuts out $25, gets one caller, and then the kid on the button zips it to $125.

It gets back to the old crusty nit and without hesitation he announces. "Lets Gamble. I am All In."

The original raiser folds and it gets back to the poker goober kid. He thinks for about a minute and then folds his kings face up. He says "if you would have thought about it longer and just shoved your chips in, I might have called you. You're not the type that gambles, you have aces."

Then, the nit does the stupidest thing ever....

He turns over his aces and says "yeah, if I didn't go all in you'd have called and we both know a king was coming!!!"

2/5nl effective stacks $320, Hero covers.

The villain in question was in his 60s, super quiet and looked a bit uncomfortable. He was one of the only other players at the table folding from the SB and not completing for $3 despite situations in which there were lots of limpers preflop.

He had a VPIP of like 8% and folded for an hour straight until I witnessed the following hand. A really loose aggro player who has been raising 30% of all his hands raises $20 from UTG+1, MP calls, LP calls, Villain tanks and it looks like he wants to fold but he calls from the CO.

Flop(80) Q 5 9
UTG+1 bets 40, MP, LP folds, V calls.

Turn(160) 4
UTG+1 checks, V checks

River(160) A
UTG bets 100, V calls

UTG shows AKo, V wins with AQ

This hand basically confirmed in my mind that V was the typical weak-tight nit especially when he doesn't raise the river with top two pair. A few hands later, he flopped a set and lost to TPGK that turned into a backdoor flush. But even in that hand, he just called down in position, never raised, and paid off a pot sized bet on river and lost about $200.

20 minutes later this hand occurs. Eff stacks $320, Hero covers and has QQ

UTG limps, UTG+1 (super loose, raising every hand) raises $20, V is next and insta calls, Hero is next and bumps it to $60, folds around to UTG+1 who tanks and then folds. V insta shoves all-in for $300-ish... Hero???

Based on the way he has been playing and his image, there is no way he is ever shoving here with AK/JJ. Just never. I decided to show my laydown since there were a lot of aggro players at the table and I wanted them to think that they could blow me off a hand.

I table my QQ and muck, villain slams his fist on the table and says, "Damn, good fold" and he tables AA.

Analysis.
This old man coffee (OMC) nit is just never shoving all-in even with AK/JJ in this spot like ever. These types of players do not play like that. Even though he was sorta short stacked at $320 ish, he just isn't shoving with AK because players like him don't consider AK a real made hand. They may raise with it, but if they don't hit flop they aren't c-betting... Given the fact that he didn't even go for a value bet with top two pair on that previous hand and that he just check/called down his flopped set in the other hand tells me everything I need to know about how comfortable he is playing for stacks.

Now, most players would level themselves with the fact that the nit didn't 3-bet. However, weak-tight nits hate getting AA in early position and when they do, they like to go for the l/rr. Since the player to his immediate right raised, the nit still won't feel comfortable re-raising so soon and would still feel the need to be trappy and slow play. Even if this doesn't make sense to us, we can take solace in the fact that this nit is NEVER 4-betting us here with JJ/AK.

The typical player would have stacked off here because QQ is a strong hand and he would think "Its only $300, pot is already $100..." However, OMC nit's 4-bet shoving range is AA and AA only. I don't even think he shoves with KK here.

So, I saved what I felt was an easy $300 by folding. Now, if I hadn't witnessed those other hands the nit was involved in, this would have been a much tougher decision. but having witnessed the nit in action, this was the easiest fold in the world. Incidentally, a few orbits later, the aggros tried to bluff me off big hands

I wanted to post one of my favorite hands from two years ago.

I'm new to the table but recognize the two villains of interest.

V1 (White, late 20s) he's an internet player turned live grinder and plays a very solid ABC game. Doesn't get out of line much and is easily a Level II player. V1 is sitting at $2K

V2 (Asian, mid 50s) he's a semi-aggro breakeven player. He's not afraid of action, knows how to play, and is a Level I/II player. V2 has $1,500

I get to the table and am just an observer standing behind V2. He lifts his hand and I see his cards

UTG limps, V1 limps from MP, V2 Q7 limps from LP, BTN limps, SB and BB limp

6-way action

Flop($30) 7 6 4

checks around to V2 who bets $15, everyone folds, action gets back to V1 who calls.

Turn($60) 7

V1 checks, V2 bets $75, V1 c/r to $275. V2 tanks and starts up the poker chatter he loves to do "You on a flush draw? You flop a straight? Okay I call"

River($610): J

V1 shoves for $1,600
V2 tanks and starts up with the poker chatter "You hit your flush huh?" at this time V2 shows the 7 and says, "I have a full house, you not scared of the full house, you don't want me to call huh? You got lucky with a flush huh? You just have a 7 huh? You scared of the flush?" and on and on and on....

V1 just sits still and doesn't even acknowledge V2 which pisses V2 off. A full minute of this passes until one of the other players calls time. Floor comes over, counts down one minute, just as he gets to 5...4....3....2.....1 V2 slams his hand down and says, "I call!!!!"

V1 shows 76

V2 explodes and leaves the table, dealer ships the $1200 or so chips over to V1.


I was 100% sure there was no way in hell V2 would call. He can't beat the flush, straight, or full house (all of which he rambled about) and yet he still called.

This was the absolute easiest fold in the universe but V2 just couldn't lay down his big hand. Part of the reason is emotion and part of the reason is a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between relative strength vs absolute strength.

This is a perfect example of llsnl. I expect villain 1 to show up wih a full house every time. I think folding nut flush and even 4s full would be correct here as sick as that sounds.

The other night I was up against your average ****ty reg/rec player villian that limps in EVERY broadway.

I had $400 in front of me, villian had worked his stack up to $600 chasing any flush or straight and hitting.

I tried as hard as I could to prison rape him, but he somehow found the fold.

I cried a little on the inside.

I limp from UTG with A/10 offsuit, pot goes 6 ways.

Flop is a rainbow of K/Q/J...

I lead out $25 because any fish with a 10 is calling, any fish with two pair is spazzing and going all in.

This villian just calls.

His range is K/10, Q/10, or J/10, he has a pair and the straight draw.

I am PRAYING for a 9 to hit.

Turn is a brick.

I bet out $50, the villian calls.

$162.00 now in pot.

The river is a KING.

I PRAY that villian had K/10 and has now just hit trip kings....

So I bet out "all in" for around $325.00 more.

Villian starts foaming at the mouth... he's shaking his head...

WHY SO MUCH? WHY SO MUCH? YOU MISS YOUR STRAIGHT DRAW? HUH HUH HUH? You have a 10 and miss? No pocket queens, or jacks, no raise preflop.. you got a weak king, huh??? I FOLD YOU SHOW?

Guy folds, I refuse to show my cards, and then he picks up his chips and leaves.

LOL.

Hand a friend of mine played

1/2 eff 200bb
Tight aggressive kid - obviously doesn't always have the nuts, attacks pots IP, but doesn't monkeyspew, finally he is perceptive of the game- old man rivers UTG raises to 10 TAG kid UTG+1 raises to $35 everyone else folds old man rivers calls.
Flop K82 check kid bets $65 old man snap calls.
Turn 3 check kid bets $160 old man snap calls.
River 9 old man checks, kid ships - old man snap calls with AK.

It's like at best old man is chopping here - there is no way kid is going to play that huge of a pot with worse than AK. especially after 3b in EP

top 2 no good

This hand happened two weeks ago/ AC late night on a Saturday.

Hero: playing laggy aggroish, but has not had to show down a bluff or air all night. Pounding pots and very active in position. Covers table($1300)

vill: Playing the antithesis of hero. Tight, right, picking spots well, hasn't got out of line once in 6hrs. Decent amount of history between us. Second largest stack at table(~$900)$

vil limps from middle position/ hero raises to $14 from button w/ KcJc/ vill calls

flop heads up 2h Jh 7d

vil check/calls a bet of $21

turn Kh

vill check/calls a bet of $60

river x

vill checks a 3rd time I fall for it and bet $105 on the river, vill check raises to like $300ish

I don't remember the exact amount because I was mucking before he finished putting the money in.

he says "damn I thought you had a hand there" and flips up the Ah 10h.

Point to the above story, fold to a river check raise faster than you walk up pacific ave!

thanks for this made me laugh.

Fold pre.

LOL, PWNT.

Here's a simple one from my session today.

1/2, Hero looks down at AKo in the CO. Old man coffee #1 opens to 10 UTG. OMC2 raises to 25 in the HJ.

Against some villains this is a tough spot. I know, though, that both these guys aren't raising UTG any wider than JJ+ AK, and they're 3betting even tighter. AK is worthless here.

It is super rare for a LLSNL player to overbet shove $1k+ on a super wet coordinated board with air.

I've been tracking my play pretty regularly averaging around 225 days per year and I've seen a $1k+ bluff shove maybe 5 times TOTAL out of 3 years of play.

You are 100% correct, There is no way in hell that V1 shows up with anything besides a full house in this spot. In fact, V1 is praying that V2 hit his flush or has 4s or 6s full. This kind of overbet shove is always the near nuts.

Hypothetically speaking, the sickest spot in the world is when we have pocket sixes here and face this kind of gross overbet shove on the river from an OOP TAG. Now that is the kind of spot that will have you laying on the floor in the fetal position crying... Any other hand like a nut flush or 4s full is an easy fold here. But pocket sixes would be a much tougher fold. Given the fact V overbet shoves a $600 pot by $1k can get us off the hand. But man, that's a sick puke fold.

lol 1/2 fish cant fold trips ever

You should raise more pre with the QQ and you didnt save 320

You saved some money but not 320

the pot (20+20+60+320) which is 420

the % of the time you lose (81.5% iirc) * what it costs us to call dudes shove (260 more)

So we saved 260*81.5 which is $212, but there was already 100 in the pot which we miss out on when we fold so....

So if we call we lose (212-100), for a total of 112?

Or did i screw something up?

I imagine them telling the story to their fish poker friend....

"Yeah, I flopped a set of aces, with the five kicker., so I had to call the guys all in and lost the $400 bucks. It sucks because like he was always raising and bluffing."

His fish friend...

"Yeah man. Nothing you can ever do about that, you gotta call when you have a set no matter how big your kicker is..."

Lawl, they don't even say "trips."

i saw a hand where one player got it all in with KK on a paired/3-to a flush board where he got raised all in by a nit. he called it off and the entire table was like "oh what a cooler, so hard to fold kings, etc etc etc" and from what i could tell they were being completely serious.

so the guy turns to me and asks "would you have got it in there?" and i said "oh yea dude" and he says "ok cool so you dont think i made a mistake?" and i said "no way of course not"

just egg them on, make them think theyre getting coolered

I haven't done the math on it, but it the above looks right.

In response to your crit, I don't want to raise more. I want the original loose player to call because he will put me on AK and stack off with anything he hits. Unfortunately, he tank folded, he "almost" called and I thought $60 was the perfect amount to get him to call . I fully expected OMC to fold so when he shoved, I had zero doubts what he had.

But you are right, I didn't save $320, I'm too lazy to do an EV calc for this so I'll just use your numbers and amend my statement to say I saved $112 dollars. Doesn't change my point though. Calling was -EV and folding my big hand in this spot was super easy, however, all the other players at the table would have snap called there.

One of the things I'm proud of is that I've made these sorts of responses an automatic part of my game.

Whenever i see someone get their money in bad like that, I automatically say, "Yeah, tough cooler man, you gotta call."

When the table douche bags start lighting in on them about how its a bad call, I defend them and say things like, "Obviously, you guys don't know any advanced poker. I saw Phil Ivey make that exact same call on Poker After Dark and he took down a $100K pot" This makes the fish feel really good and more importantly, it keeps him making bad calls/plays

"I had to call" I absolutely love hearing those words as middle aged tourist reaches into his pocket one more time.

An example of this came earlier in the week from a guy, sits down looks at maybe 3 hands before he flats my raise from BB,

I had A7s flop the world 774

he donks $25 I call

turn x he donks $25 again? I just call (which is poor on my part)

river x he leads a 3rd time for $25/ I raise a little over $200 to put him all in

he snap call beats me in the pot w/ QQ and then uttered those fateful words.

An example of the standard vill which is NEVER folding an over pair ever

And I do the same thing dgi, I always say something like "There's no chance I would a folded there." or "I could never get away from that draw on the turn!"

Always w/ the positive reinforcement for negative play

+1 lol

i dont really talk much, well i dont really talk ever, except to lie to some fish to tell him he's playing great

Not 3! Large enough with value hands preflop is a leak. If he calls 60 he will call 80 a late % of the time. They are going to stack of anyway, what you raise wont change that.

Villains play is dependent on their cards for 90% of their decisions.

More is better, less is worse

Not to derail, but we need to pay attention to table and villain thresholds, betting patterns, sizing tells, etc.

Based on his bets and previous actions at the table, $60 was the magic number. Obviously, if what you say is true, I can apply that logic down a slippery slope to all-in... If he'll call 80 he'll call 100... if he'll call 100 he'll call 120... if he'll call 120 he'll call 140...

Obviously, somewhere there is a line that he will not cross. And in this case, that line was $60. The fact that he tank folded tells me my sizing was close to perfect. If I made it $55 he would have called.

Yes, I'm all about extracting value, no question about that. But you can't blindly use the logic you are using. We have to pay attention to what our villains are betting and calling and size our bets accordingly.

To be clear, I agree with what you are saying, that is, if we know our villains will call a bigger bet than absolutely bet more with our value hands... But there is a line they will not cross and if we are paying attention we should know where that line is. Anyways, my last post on the matter, we will agree to disagree.

tend to agree with dhcg in this case

villains dont care what the size is, they dont know its 5x or 9x or 1.5x pot or whatever. they see the dollar amount and the difference between 60 and 80 isnt much to them.

edit: of course if we're betting $200 or something crazy like that, we're not going to get called by a lot but tbh i wouldnt be surprised to see someone call off with a pretty wide range. im not saying thats what we should do, but it does tell us a lot about these villains.

As far as reinforcing bad play, I just posted this in another thread...

If anyone is berating the fish, after the fish has made a TERRIBLE CALL AND WON I'll say something to him like "ha ha, that guy sure is trying to help you learn the game of poker, I wonder if he wants to help you stack your chips, ask him"...

The fish love it.

Also, sometimes a fish knows he/she got lucky against me.

They know they made a terrible call on the turn, then sucked out on the river.

They'll actually apologize.

I say "Hey, you know what, we're in a casino right now aren't we?"

The fish will say "Yes."

Then I say "You're allowed to gamble in a casino right? Looks like you took a gamble and won. Don't ever be sorry."

The fish will then laugh and be like "yeah, it is a casino after all right? I'm just here to have fun."

All the other fish at the table LOVE hearing that line as well.

If someone else is making fun of the fish, you can get the dealer in on it...

Just interrupt and be like "hey, hold on, be quiet for a second, dealer.... are we in a casino right now?"

Dealer will say "yes."

Then say, "so it's ok if that man wanted to gamble and try to hit his flush on the turn for $200 right, it's legal that he called that bet, we're in a casino right?"

Table will start laughing and the dealer will be like "Yes."

Then you look at the fish and say "Nice pot sir, great to see you like to gamble, I do to, sometimes you just know it's coming."

It makes all the fish at the table feel at ease.