Relevant players
EP: OMC sitting on $450. Seen him in very few spots, seems weak tight.
CO: Rec fish on a bit of a heater. Turned $100 into $600 or so over the past few orbits. Hits disguised hands and gets paid off.
BB: unknown short stack with $60.
Button: Hero - usually very LAGgy but been a bit tighter. I've only been at the table for an hour and haven't gone crazy yet. $400 stack

Hand:

1 limp to OMC who raises to $15
CO calls
Hero calls with AsJs
BB shorty calls

Flop: 10s 2s 2d
BB checks
OMC bets $40
CO raises to $100 straight
Hero thinks than ships

Thoughts?

On a spew scale of 1-10, this is about a 13.4 haha. Fold pre. OMC ain't opening less than AK.

Fold flop, we don't know if any of our outs are clean (hint: they're not). Seems like we can get our money in better versus a nit and a fish.

I would fold preflop. Our hand sucks against OMC. Sure, the fish is trapped in the hand but that ain't quite enough for me as this is only going to go 3way (the fact that a shortstack BB is coming along is fairly irrelevant).

I would fold the flop. Fishy guy has probably just been playing crap trying to get lucky and get paid off, and looks like he's done that again here. Sure, a ship might fold OMC but Fishy is never folding a 2. We can't call because OMC could ship himself, plus we can't ignore the fact that board is paired (at the very least we're down an out against OMC).

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1

I don't mind the pf call, but only because you're on the button.

Rec fish could have A2suited. A10/K10/Q10/J10/JJ/QQ seem more likely to me. And a semi-bluff with a smaller flush draw is also well within his range.

OMC probably has an overpair to the board. Unless he has aces, you may have fold equity against him... particularly since he'd be calling off his stack against *two* raisers.

I'd chose between two options:
1. Fold my dirty, dirty flush draw. One way or the other, I don't have all my flush outs (either someone already has trips, or someone has two flush cards in their hand, or both).
2. Raise to $250. That's effectively an all-in raise, since my plan will be to call any reraise on the flop, and call any bet on the turn. But I think it looks a bit more threatening to my villains/gives them an opportunity to level themselves.

I don't think calling is an option. Calling would rep either a nfd or a flopped boat/quads. But if either player has a 10 or a 2 in their hand, they're going to decide its the nfd and they'll bet again.

I'd try to get a physical read on them. If this feels like a spot with fold equity, I'd choose option 2. If both players look eager/excited, I'd choose option 1.

couldnt possible aggro fish see shorty as dead money and think he can take pot away from cbetting omc.. Is the fish capable of this thinking.. or is the board just a no go for fish to think that

9.4 out of 10.

Well done

What I meant is that it's irrelevant for preflop purposes whether another shortstack comes along for the ride or not. Now if BB was another huge fish with a big stack, preflop is closer, imo.

GoftentheirrelevantstackatthetableG

FWIW, as far as spews go this can't possibly be on the horrendous side since there's a decent chance we have decent outs if called, and there's also a decent chance this gets thru.

GIwouldn'tdoit,butIdon'tthinkit'slikespaztasticora nythingG

If CO is truly a fish he's not thinking that far down the road. He's got top pear and he's going nuckin' futs.

OMC has QQ-AA, and I'd heavily discount QQ. We mustn't count the A as an out, maybe we can count is as a third of an out best-case. Literally there is zero chance our J is any good.

Just spewed my coffee and I wasn't even drinking any.

I was going to say its off the charts but your score will do.

What are you drawing to? When you shove you want to have some fold equity out there and you probably don't have it here. This is so .. classic draw shove ... that OMC will call if QQ+ (which means J is not good) and CO will feel the 'pot commited with odds urge' to call you also.

You aren't +EV here without fold equity and you cant even get 3.5 to 1 to draw to your flush or Ace (if good).

It wasn't pure gamble, but -EV is spew ... at least you waited to 'improve' before gii with OMC. GL

ohok cool
hah. yea

lol i laughed like that monkey laughs in his show ' off the charts'

Fold pre as a standard.

As played I would call flop. Keep weaker draws in the pot. Other hands are not folding I presume. And if we must make a hand then keeping OMC in the hand would be best.

I don't mind a flat preflop on the button vs an OMC that plays his hand face up and a fish. You have to be disciplined enough to play smart post flop though (don't get sticky w TP vs OMC). If you're prone to make bad plays (like this one), avoid the situation all together and fold preflop. I give this hand an 8 on the spew-meter because as bad as you played it, you MIGHT not have been drawing dead.

I rate 9.1, i don't want to be left out

Just depends on how good we feel about the old guy folding an OP. Against proper OMCs, this is good because he is going to fold his OP so fast that you won't have time to get nervous, but described player seems like more of a mostly unknown, vaguely tight seeming old guy. So I'll rate this, "Not a bad idea, but don't try this at home."

I'd also make it like $325 instead of shoving as it looks less FoS and saves us 25bbs when we miss more than it costs us when we hit.

Preflop is completely fine. You don't have to be ahead of original opener's range to turn a profit here.

Nice point. Can we attempt to steal pot here if we had
A note or is this board fool proof?

Depends on how omc omc is. Is he a laggy omc who raises as light as qq? Is 15 a big raise for this table, suggesting jj? If yes, I 3! pre. If no, I fold pre.

:beer: I will spend whatever time is necessary to address your problems and concerns.

Don't even like/drink coffee and same lmao

I'm not folding pre with position on the rec fish. OMC is also weak-tight and his range isn't capped at JJ+ just because he raised preflop. However, once he bets $40 on the flop he clearly has an overpair. After the fish raises it's time to sigh/fold.

No man drinking coffee and older than 40 raises less than jj.

:beer: I will spend whatever time is necessary to address your problems and concerns.

OMC is not really the problem here if we shove. If we knew CO would fold to the shove, it'd be ok; we're 39% against {QQ+}, which is just barely -EV even assuming we have zero FE. The issue is that CO has a 2 here really often, and a shove is way -EV when he comes along. So I'm gonna go with a 7 out of 10 on the spew-meter. It's spewy, but let's be honest, we've all seen far worse.

And yeah, fold pre. (Edit: if you meant rate the spew of the entire hand, my spew score goes up.)

I don't know - I think calling is bad because our best hope is to get OMC to fold his overpair if he ever will. So I think this play is super read dependent. First of all, if OMC ever folds AA/KK/QQ here, then I can see a shove, and if you think the fish would ever raise with a club draw, this is a fist pump shove for me. But if the fish would raise a draw but OMC would NEVER fold an overpair, then I fold the flop.

I don't mind flatting pre, but again, I'd be more inclined to knowing that OMC could fold an overpair. Some of those guys will snap fold the turn if you ever raise there and the pot is heads up.

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