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04-20-2011 , 01:17 AM
2/5 NL underground game in my area.

Hero's image is unquestionably SLAG. He's responsible for about 80% of the preflop raises and 100% of the preflop 3bets (table is otherwise super passive, especially pre) and he has been caught c/ring the river with air and triple barreling with a semi-bluff (as well as showing down an acceptable amount of real hands). Hero is also acting (?) drunk and generally gives off the vibe of being a guy there to gamble.

Villain is a young-ish asian guy who has been up and down. He's loose and passive to the extent that Hero has only seen him raise once post-flop and that was with the nut straight on the flop. He's also taken a ton of weird lines in the sense that he's limped, even in position and/or with limpers in front of him, with hands as big as KK and QQ. He's also the one who snapped off hero's earlier river c/r with said limped QQ on the button on 357KJ no flush board with QQ after Hero took the line b/c flop, ch/ch turn, ch/j river with 8 high.

7-handed, effective stacks approximately 500.

3 limpers to Villain on the button, limps, sb completes, Hero raises to 35 with TcTs, 3 folds, Villain calls, fold.

(Pot $90)
Flop: J55r

Hero bets $55, Villain Calls.

I think this is pretty standard... I expect Villain to fold a lot here, never show up with a 5, call me with worse a fair amount, and float me rarely/never so he's never making my life hard on later streets by repping overcards or whatnot. Fwiw, I don't think he has a raising range on this flop.

(Pot $200)
Turn: Ac, bringing backdoor clubs

Hero bets $120, Villain calls.

When Villain called flop I had him on basically all pocket pairs (except AA probably) and lots of jacks (probably JTs-AJs). I never expect him to show up with a 5 (though both of them is possible). At this point I decided to turn my hand into a bluff since I don't think he ever has an Ace unless it's AJ and life just got pretty miserable for him with a good chunk of his range that I don't beat. When he called he tanked, and I was 100% sure going to river that he didn't have a pair of aces or better but that he had me beat.

(Pot $440)
River: 4, missing the flush

Hero jams.

Hero would take this same line with AA, JJ, AJs+, and AQo+ all here for value, but I have no idea if Villain is aware of that. Obviously Villain is aware there could be plenty of air/turned semi-bluffs in Hero's range at any given moment. No idea if he thinks we can show up with just a jack on the river, but I would hope not since it makes no sense.

Thoughts on any/all streets welcome.

Mostly, of course, based on image/history do we think Villain is folding KK, QQ, and his jacks on the river here (I think he shows up with all of them) enough for this shove to be good since I'm 100% sure we're beat on the river?
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04-20-2011 , 02:00 AM
I think you were fine until the turn. Then it all came crumbling down. For such a loose passive villain I just don't see any point in betting, especially with your lag image.
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04-20-2011 , 02:11 AM
We haven't seen the villain in action, so only you can decide if villain is folding Jx-KK here. If this villain is anything like most of the loose passive players I've played against, you are not making villain fold those hands anywhere near often enough to make this move profitable. Then again, occasionally I'll make a bluff like this and get called by a worse hand, but it doesn't sound like this is likely with this villain.

It sounds like you could get a free showdown whenever you want. I suggest you take it after betting the flop, and hope he has nines.
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04-20-2011 , 02:29 AM
Pre - fine.
Flop - fine.
Turn - errrrr...on one hand I like it, but if he thinks you are FOS, you are going to be hard pressed to get him off of much of a hand.
River - once he tanks that turn, shoving here is setting money on fire. *IF* he had not had success snapping you off previously, I would like it much better. Your line is so strong that I think you could get most players off of Jx+, and here it comes down to is the guy passive/fearful or is he simply a stone cold calling station?
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04-20-2011 , 06:04 AM
If villain is loose passive, what's the point in turning your hand into a bluff and trying to get him off strong jacks? It seems to me that loose passive villains are the worse to bluff and the easiest to get value from with TP+. I look for a showdown after the flop call and wait for a different spot.
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04-20-2011 , 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSkip
Pre - fine.
Flop - fine.
Turn - errrrr...on one hand I like it, but if he thinks you are FOS, you are going to be hard pressed to get him off of much of a hand.
River - once he tanks that turn, shoving here is setting money on fire. *IF* he had not had success snapping you off previously, I would like it much better. Your line is so strong that I think you could get most players off of Jx+, and here it comes down to is the guy passive/fearful or is he simply a stone cold calling station?
Fwiw, Villain has just been very passive preflop (i.e. limping pretty much his whole range). He's taken the lead in post-flop situations and folded good hands before showdown, sometime in inexplicable ways (he mucked KK face up on a similar kind of flop in like a 4 way limped pot to 1 player leading out). I've beat him at showdown in a number of pots during the past few hours as well.

Villain also hasn't called 3 streets like this (certainly not against a line this strong in) since I've sat down so I've really got no history on how he might react to my line once I decide to blow-up on the turn.

Agreed if Villain is a station that this play is ridiculous (and that it might be anyway). When I decide to take this line I'm definitely more concerned about getting hero called because of my image, not because Villain simply can't lay down a jack or whatever in this spot.

I also don't think Villain expects me to ever show up with total junk or suited connectors here if that makes a difference. Loose as I've been playing I suspect he's going to put my BB pf raising range as something like big aces, some suited broadways, and 77+ or something like that. I absolutely believe Villain is thinking about stuff like this too, but I'm not sure how intelligently (i.e. if he's putting me on a sensible range or just trying to think of hands I could conceivably have that he can beat).
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04-20-2011 , 11:05 AM
I think if your going to bet the turn than the third barrel is prob good, BUT given your recent history and HH you posted I am not sure if this is the right villain to try this against.
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04-20-2011 , 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark82880
Fwiw, Villain has just been very passive preflop (i.e. limping pretty much his whole range). He's taken the lead in post-flop situations and folded good hands before showdown, sometime in inexplicable ways (he mucked KK face up on a similar kind of flop in like a 4 way limped pot to 1 player leading out). I've beat him at showdown in a number of pots during the past few hours as well.

Villain also hasn't called 3 streets like this (certainly not against a line this strong in) since I've sat down so I've really got no history on how he might react to my line once I decide to blow-up on the turn.

Agreed if Villain is a station that this play is ridiculous (and that it might be anyway). When I decide to take this line I'm definitely more concerned about getting hero called because of my image, not because Villain simply can't lay down a jack or whatever in this spot.

I also don't think Villain expects me to ever show up with total junk or suited connectors here if that makes a difference. Loose as I've been playing I suspect he's going to put my BB pf raising range as something like big aces, some suited broadways, and 77+ or something like that. I absolutely believe Villain is thinking about stuff like this too, but I'm not sure how intelligently (i.e. if he's putting me on a sensible range or just trying to think of hands I could conceivably have that he can beat).

Gotcha. Based on that history, I see what you were thinking here.

Based on the above, I think you can justify the river shove. The line looks really strong, and if the villain is capable of big folds, this is probably the one to convince him. If he calls, it will be because of the recent history where he picked you off, but as those hands played differently, then there is the chance the shove here forces him out.

Question: there were two clubs by the turn - was the J the or was it one of the 5s?
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04-21-2011 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSkip
Gotcha. Based on that history, I see what you were thinking here.

Based on the above, I think you can justify the river shove. The line looks really strong, and if the villain is capable of big folds, this is probably the one to convince him. If he calls, it will be because of the recent history where he picked you off, but as those hands played differently, then there is the chance the shove here forces him out.

Question: there were two clubs by the turn - was the J the or was it one of the 5s?
Sadly I don't remember, although I don't think it it has much impact on my range (since my river bet is pretty polarizing to hands bluffs and good Aces up or better) and given the way he acted before calling the turn I was sure he didn't have clubs and was thus happily jamming those rivers as well.

In retrospect I think (as a few people have pointed out) the turn was where this all went sour and I should have just happily gone into c/f or showdown mode on the turn.

Does it change anything if I've got KQcc here? I think that makes the turn bet pretty mandatory and then it's purely a question or whether we think a shove can be profitable on the river.

Also, I ran into KK in this spot, which is the absolute top of Villain's range (and unfortunately the kind of hand lots of people just hate to fold even if it's probably beat at these stakes, especially when they play it weird). Given that he tanked so long, I'm not sure if he would have called with a jack, although I suspect QQ would find the same call if it made it to the river the same way.
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04-21-2011 , 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark82880
Sadly I don't remember, although I don't think it it has much impact on my range (since my river bet is pretty polarizing to hands bluffs and good Aces up or better) and given the way he acted before calling the turn I was sure he didn't have clubs and was thus happily jamming those rivers as well.

In retrospect I think (as a few people have pointed out) the turn was where this all went sour and I should have just happily gone into c/f or showdown mode on the turn.

Does it change anything if I've got KQcc here? I think that makes the turn bet pretty mandatory and then it's purely a question or whether we think a shove can be profitable on the river.

Also, I ran into KK in this spot, which is the absolute top of Villain's range (and unfortunately the kind of hand lots of people just hate to fold even if it's probably beat at these stakes, especially when they play it weird). Given that he tanked so long, I'm not sure if he would have called with a jack, although I suspect QQ would find the same call if it made it to the river the same way.
Based on your villain's description, KK there doesn't surprise me.
On the flop he was all "I tarped him!", and on the turn he was "I tarped myself - but I call". Rinse and repeat on the river.
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