Game is 1-2 400 max that has gotten deep. We are 30 minutes from closing and game is playing closer to a 2/5. Hero has gotten coolered a few times but has shown premium hands and has ground back up to $600

V1 is 55-65 year old Asian man who is somewhat passive. Loose to a single raise, tightens up significantly to a 3 bet. In SB. Covers
V2 is a 30-40 year old black man who moved from a broken table. No reads. In MP. Covers

3 limps to button who raises to 10. V1 calls. We are in the BB with two red queens and raise to 45. V2 calls $43 more. Button Folds. V1 calls

Pot (150)

Flop: 7s5s3x
V1 checks, I check, V2 checks

Turn: 5d
V1 checks. We bet 65. V2 calls, V1 calls.
Pot (345)

River: 7c
V1 thinks for 15 seconds and bets $200. WWYD?

Sorry forgot a critical piece of info. We are 7 handed.

never folding here, they'll turn over A5/A7/56/78s type hands sometimes but that's going to be a small part of their range and i don't see them playing any of those passively on that board

i don't see V1 flatting twice with KK+ pre, nor do I see him sitting or a hand that hits that flop and check calling oop on turn

had you played it more aggressively then i think we'd have a fold here but you are severely under repped here and the range advantage is very much against you given a lot of 1-2 players would be triple barreling this board with an overpair or at least cbetting that flop 3 handed

v2 feels like a missed draw, v1 likely sees how improbably it was for anyone to have connected and anyone in a draw obviously missed and took a stab at it, or maybe he has JJ and thinks "best hand so bet" idk, it doesn't matter, it can get tricky putting justification for 1-2 badreg choices

snap call and happily rinse and repeat even if results are no bueno

I think you have to fold. If we were heads up on the flop, I would likely call as he may be making a move with Ace high or a middle overpair. But he has called in bad position on turn. Even though he was closing the action, he called after seeing V2 call as well. He likely had something. He now knows the hand could easily check around on the river. He is forced to expose the strength of his hand by betting first.

Yes it could be a bluff and I think the large bet is kind of intended to make you think it is a bluff. But he is betting into two players on a double paired board. I just don't see many players making this bluff into two people. If he were last to act and we checked to him and he bet, I would be much more suspect he was bluffing and would be more inclined to look him up. He could easily have a hand like 78 or 56.

Main problem here is we are being squeezed between him and V2 who has also shown interest in this pot and is still last to act. If our call were closing the action, you might consider it. But what will we do if we call and V2 shoves all in. One may have 56 and the other 78 and they could stack off against each other.

If you have seen V1 make a prior move like this, then you could make a hero call. But lets say V2 has a 5 and decides to call behind. We still loose even if V1 was bluffing. Our hand is capped and we are basically face up. They have the nut and range advantage in this case.

You should probably have checked the turn too. Let V2 bet first and see if V1 called, then called if bet was small but hoped to keep pot small.

Tough situation. This is a good example of the difficulty one has making a profit when they hit a speculative hand OOP. They are forced to lead out with a bet or risk letting it get checked through. They cannot disguise the strength of their hand. If they lead out and we fold, they do not make money. If they check and we check, they do not make money. The best way to discourage them from calling in early position with speculative hands is to not pay them off when they do hit.

Then, the only way they can make these hands profitable is if they are willing to bluff too much and try to steal when board is scary. And, he may have done that and gotten away with it if it had been heads up. But the third person in the pot who also has a wide range makes that much less likely.

Save your money and fold. Hope V2 calls, so you get to see if V1 was making a play or not.

these two bits of information are deeply at odds

We have different definition of what a tight range looks like from Blind in deep stack hand against a smallish 3-bet. He plays passively. Does this bet look passive? Passive players are not bluffing much. He could have called with a pp and flopped a set or an overpair. And yes, he could be over-valuing his overpair, thinking we have AK that missed. But that is not likely with button left to act on a double paired board. And either one of the villains could have called with A5 or A7. Bottom line is do we think they would have bet the flop with a middle pair? 56 and 67 would likely have bet in first position but have just called in last position. 78 would have checked in first position to PFR.

Not saying V1 is never making a move and trying to squeeze you out hoping V2 missed a draw. Just saying we have no information to suggest V1 is a tricky player. And, even if he is we have to fear a raise by V2. And yes V1 may think his overpair is good. But that hand should check call to induce a bet from a worse hand. It is not a good value bet. I might make a very small value bet with QQ from MP but probably not. That would re-open a bet by V1. Point is even with QQ, I am happy to get to showdown here and not trying to value bet. If I did value bet here, it would be very small as I am trying to get Ace high and middle overpairs to call. His large river bet polarizes his range. Either a 7 or a bluff. I do not think it represents an overpair at all. I wouldn't be surprised to see V1 turn over 55 in this situation, hoping to get value from any 7 and possibly a moron with an overpair.

If V1 wants to risk 200 on a bluff with V2 left to act, then he is a better player than I. Let him have it. Even if I have seen him make this move before, I am still folding because if I have seen it, likely V2 has seen it as well. V2 could now re-raise bluff. MP is bad place to be with a capped range on this flop.

Question is should we have fired a big bet on the flop to try and get the draws or small pairs to fold? Take down pot on flop or give up. Overall, I think that is a very bad play. That sort of play practically guarantees players they will get correct IO to call with their speculative hands against us.

Checking flop was fine. QQ has to worry about two overcards as well as any card from 2-9 on the turn and any spade. He also has to worry about 46 for a made straight on the flop, two pair hands and sets. QQ is not a hand we can protect with a bet. We should be in check call small mode all the way through on this hand. Maybe if Turn is J and River is T can we make a decent value bet.

i understand what you're saying, i'm clearly deeply influenced by this being 1-2

What I would do is bet the flop. You shouldn't be slow playing an OP on this dynamic a flop. There are so many worse hands that can call a good sized bet. At the same time, QQ is not a monster post flop.

As played, bet more on the turn and call the river. The call on the river is to punish yourself for playing this hand the way you did. If you won, congrats.

Betting the flop is questionable as so many scare cards on turn. If we are up against two fish who will call down with middle and bottom pair and never try to bluff, then yes, value bet them all day long but only because they are not capable of check raising with a draw or a bluff. But if you are playing against any thinking opponent this is a definite check and then maybe call on the river to catch a bluff. Never want to build a pot which will entice someone to take a stab at bluffing the river when they do miss their draw.

^^^This.

I realize most young'uns these days believe that anything written before 2020 is old and useless thinking, but years ago people advised to not play more than 1 level above your opponents' thinking.

I believe this still holds true.

I think you are all too stuck on labeling players as good or bad based upon what level game they are playing in and that is so wrong for so many different reasons.

For one, I myself and presumably those of you reading and posting these threads are all playing at these levels and we are all clearly thinking opponents and we are not all fish. Not all fish are equal. There will often be tricky players at your low stakes games. But it does not take a tricky play to beat you on this board. Any 5 or 7 is going to call. And they are likely playing their made hand face up by betting into us. Nothing here requiring any, higher level thinking. When they bet they have it. So fold. It would be second level thinking for them to check and try to trap. But it would just get checked around. So they have to bet this hand if they want to make any money. Again, nothing fancy or tricky here.

Also, pay very close attention to stack size in these small stakes games. Many are buying in short and playing appropriately tight for a short stack strategy. You can be sure they have it when they only play one hand every other orbit and then they get it all-in on the turn. On the other hand, others are playing ultra deep with 800+ on table in a 1-2 game. I often have 1500 on a 1-3 game. My opening range and post-flop strategy will be totally different. To many nits, I look like a fish because I call loose on the button. But trust me, I didn't sit down with 1500, I won it.

I won it because I am a thinking player and I can adjust as needed to different opponents and different stack sizes on every hand. And, I am not the only thinking player at my table. Many of my opponents are very competent as well. To just lump them all together as fish so we can justify calling with our overpair on a double paired board against two opponents facing a big bet and action behind us is just plain stupid.

We shouldn't even be discussing this. Easy fold. Congratulate the other player for having called our 3-bet with J7o and move on. If he is a fish, we have to accept a 55773 board hits him more than it hits us. We cannot have it both ways, make the fish only have bad cards when it suits us. Good hand. Hope this win reinforces him to keep calling with bad starting hands and not get paid off when he does make a rare hand on the river. It happens. Move on.

So let me clarify my thinking on the flop as that has seemed to earn some discussion. In similar situations where my range is capped and it’s multi-way, I usually mix in betting 1/2 pot or checking. The stack sizes here were weird. I thought about $120 otf and jamming most turns. But I felt that’s overplaying this hand. If I’m betting flop at a smaller sizing, then turn is weird and I have to c/f a ton. So I decided to check in the attempts to only have to play 2 streets and get to showdown at a reasonable price. Maybe this is a leak?

loose, you could be right for all i know, and I say this not to insult or deride but to make a genuine observation of a leak likely holding you back towards progressing up the totem pole

you only find this absolute certainty of position that you are exhibiting among 1-2 players

we both said our pieces and there's no need to find a definitive answer, these threads aren't a substitute for pio but rather to foster a discussion to look at hands from multiple perspectives, if he wants a cut and dry answer there are far better places than forums

this isn't a place to argue about who is right and who is wrong is what I'm saying - furthermore, the way poker is, there are scenarios where conflicting decisions could both be correct depending on villain and also because rarely will you want to make the same decision 100% of the time

hopefully some more people will chime in with their thoughts and maybe op will then give an update

I’ve said it before but I think one of the biggest challenges is figuring out how much your opponent is trying.

I’ll sit in a 2/5 and opponents will range from solver using pros to pure bingo players. It’s simply less mistake prone to play a boring, solver-friendly style


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Reviewing the hand history one more time. The SB calling your 45 dollar 3-bet after a cold-call from a MP player is agreeably very suspect and suggests considerable strength as he is willing to play OOP against two opponents. I would expect most good players to 4-bet with AA here, but that almost never happens at lower stakes games. I would definitely put him on a pocket pair. I seriously doubt he is calling with too many suited connectors. That said, I am still pretty sure he has us beat. He may have AA but that hand still has to worry the MP player has any 5 or 8. So, I would just about have to put him on 55 here. I don't think he plays 33 or AA or even 88 this way. He would be forced to check in first position with 88 as he cannot hope to get much action from a hand even as strong as 56 if he leads out.

But agree some players could be trying to steal in this situation. It just falls to you having enough information about his playing style. But his pre-flop call and you saying he tightens up after a 3-bet , makes me feel like his river bet is not a bluff. It feels like a value bet to me.

Results:

probably bet the flop with QQ no spade

fold river

K great hand. Good call. Will make note that SB is tricky player and was trying to squeeze us out on scare card. It would have worked against me with another player left to act behind me. All comes down to how tight and aggressive these players are and can we narrow their ranges pre-flop. I was less worried about SB having suited connectors but did not have a good read on MP range.

I mean, on a runout like this on a 3 bet board, a lot of people are going to think an Ace is good, or at bare minimum chopping. V could also be calling with middle or overpairs we are beating (8s and 6s come to mind, but he can also show up with JJ-99 for hands we are ahead of).

I am not giving him any credit for a boat here, and calling pretty comfy with. If he got tricky with AA/KK and made a play with one of the few hands that would consider calling, good for him. He could show up with the occasional A5 suited or A7, but he has to also have a lot of Ax that can be just thinking fold or chop.

If this wasn't a 3 bet pot, I could folds a lot easier here, even without OP's read.

I am not as worried about SB as I am the MP player. But the SB chose to bet into two of us, so that does make me a little worried he has hit this board. Had the MP folded on the turn and we were heads up on the river, it would be an easy call.

Granted the MP could be calling with a draw but could also have an overpair such as 99. I guess if we both check, the MP player may bet 200 on the river if he missed. Maybe the SB felt it was better to bet first rather than check call. Surely he didn't think he was betting for value with an Ace into two players especially knowing one or both of us may very well have an overpair. If he is that bad of a player, then we have an easy call in the future.

I would still favor a check call in this situation as you may induce a bet on the river that will never call if you bet first.