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QQ on KT8 QQ on KT8

07-11-2022 , 10:16 AM
8-handed, I am chair 1 button is chair 6. Very passive table, not uncommon for 5+ players to limp. I have villain covered, and we're both well short of 100bb. My notes are missing some details so I'll keep it short.

Look down at black queens, make it 10, 2 calls.
KT8r
I check, chair 6 (btn) checks, chair 7 (sb) makes it 10, I call, c6 calls.
Jack hits, I believe red and it brings in a backdoor flush draw (for them) and open-ended straight draw for me. I check, c6 checks, c7 bets $10, call call.
River is the Blank of Blanks, think it was a 4.
I check, c6 shoves, c7 folds, action to me.

I'm pretty sure I'm beat but there's a few pairs of jacks I'm ahead of.
Pot is $90ish before the shove, as played, how big of a shove should I call? (and any other advice)

Also, in the process of writing this, I'm realizing that my outs to a straight aren't clean as 2 of the 8 bring in a flush. There's only about 8 river cards I wanna see (non-flush A, non-flush 9, other two queens) and if the straight does come in the board will be 9TJK or TJKA both of which will make it very obvious that anyone with a Q has a straight.

Last edited by garicasha; 07-11-2022 at 10:29 AM.
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07-11-2022 , 10:38 AM
How is chair 7b(sb) acting last on each postflop street?

Is this 1/2 or 1/3?
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07-11-2022 , 10:58 AM
This sounds more like a big bac game but how much did he jam into 90 otr?

Likely folding to the jam
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07-11-2022 , 04:56 PM
Very astute playbig, I am a table games floorperson as my alter ego.

1/2, chair 7 is a little on the looser side, chair 6 was a little tighter and likely to have a K or better. I was actually kinda hoping 7 would call because I'd get better pot odds and was more likely to have him beat.
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07-11-2022 , 07:01 PM
garicasha, the action on each street doesn’t make sense.

How does it go check, check, SB bets?

SB acts first postflop.

Do you have a typo in your hand history?
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07-11-2022 , 08:09 PM
The hand is a little hard to follow but as general advice when someone leads they generally are capped. So the person who led the flop isn't so much of concern as he could be leading middle pair or even a hand like 87 or A8. the bet on the turn also seems weak, he could be trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Heads up you could raise the flop or turn but the 3rd player should have a K here. For sure you can call the flop but once the 3rd player calls the turn you will be folding to river bets. In small stakes people just don't bluff enough good players lose a lot of money not being able to make the tough folds. I know one winning player (winning player as in poker pays the bills) at 1/3 and 2/5 that actually overfolds against large turn and or river bets. Unless he has a read or history of course.
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07-11-2022 , 10:08 PM
At the passive table you describe, plus (apparently) being OOP with just shy of 100bb, I'm opening for $15, not $10. There isn't much a table like that will fold for $15, that they're not folding for $10. Anyway, with $30 in the pot, I'm betting $20 on any non-ace board and going from there.
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07-11-2022 , 11:29 PM
Button was on Chair 6 for sure.

So edited it becomes:

Look down at black queens, make it 10, 2 calls.
KT8r
c7 bets 10, call call.
Jack comes in, c7 bets 10, call call.
River is the Blank of Blanks, think it was a 4.
c7 checks, I check, c6 shoves, c7 folds, action to me.
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07-12-2022 , 01:22 AM
Call me a blasphemer, but I fold the flop. The reason is, I don't figure to improve, but in order to hang on to my QQ with a death grip, I'm going to have to call off three streets. Then Gumbo shows me K9 or some such. Honk.

I don't call off my stack on the river with second pair, which is why I wouldn't call on the flop in the first place. If I indeed have the best hand on the flop, there's not much more money to be made, but if I don't and I'm stubborn, I'll lose 3x or more whatever profit I could expect if my hand was best. So I figure to win a little or lose a lot by riding my QQ like a barrel over Niagara Falls.
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07-12-2022 , 06:11 AM
And that's sort of it, but poker has all these balancing acts. Now what you said is reasonable, until it's worded "I always fold QQ on the flop if a K or A comes"...and that's exploitable too.

But yah I'm not here because I thought I played the hand right. I figured at best I was good one time in three and I don't think I had the pot odds even for that.

Although given how late it was and the small amount of the shove it's not ... the worst play I've ever made. Even at the time I recognized it was a crying call, but in retrospect probably a mistake.
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07-12-2022 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garicasha
Very astute playbig, I am a table games floorperson as my alter ego.

1/2, chair 7 is a little on the looser side, chair 6 was a little tighter and likely to have a K or better. I was actually kinda hoping 7 would call because I'd get better pot odds and was more likely to have him beat.
Yea I haven't heard that since I dealt big bac back in the day. Since he's a tighter player it's def a fold. If it was a bluff, good for him.
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07-12-2022 , 09:57 AM
I would fold on the end if the jam is for a decent amount. Maybe I call if it’s for $20 or so due to pot odds.
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07-12-2022 , 06:47 PM
Yah, it cost me $40 to see what AK looked like.
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07-12-2022 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by garicasha
Yah, it cost me $40 to see what AK looked like.
If you played it more aggressively, as I suggested, you could have lost $35 total and known where you were at. This is a perfect example of why passive play is inferior.
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07-12-2022 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKon
If you played it more aggressively, as I suggested, you could have lost $35 total and known where you were at. This is a perfect example of why passive play is inferior.
How could Hero cbet flop when SB donk bets into the field?

Anyway, if we assume SB didn’t donk bet: I am not saying cbetting flop is bad, since we can presumably get called by worse, but your example doesn’t make sense to me. If Hero cbets 20, he gets called in two spots, and turn is a J, Hero still has to check/call a reasonable bet by BTN. He turns an OESD. Don’t see how he loses less with a flop cbet. Seems more likely that he loses more.

Anyway, the play was to fold river and cut losses at the $20 postflop. But the fact Hero called river isn’t proof that passive action on the flop is bad or anything.
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07-13-2022 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium
How could Hero cbet flop when SB donk bets into the field?

Anyway, if we assume SB didn’t donk bet: I am not saying cbetting flop is bad, since we can presumably get called by worse, but your example doesn’t make sense to me. If Hero cbets 20, he gets called in two spots, and turn is a J, Hero still has to check/call a reasonable bet by BTN. He turns an OESD. Don’t see how he loses less with a flop cbet. Seems more likely that he loses more.

Anyway, the play was to fold river and cut losses at the $20 postflop. But the fact Hero called river isn’t proof that passive action on the flop is bad or anything.
Fair enough and I do play passively at times, however, this just doesn't seem like one of those times. By playing aggressively, I just find that you gain more information sooner and allow you to dump a loser with minimal loss.
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