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QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table

08-07-2013 , 12:53 PM
Posting this hand for a friend, but I'm curious what recommendations are:

Just sat down, a bunch of very large $600+ stacks. No reads yet.

Hero: 30's white male, just put some headphones in. Folded first hand. Bought in for $200.

Villain: 50's black guy, sweatshirt, jeans, no headphones. Not shuffling chips, no other information that seems useful, stack of $700.

Hand:
Pre Flop:
Villain posts SB, BB posts
Fold
Fold
Random raises to $10
Random calls
Random calls
Fold
Hero OTB raises to $60 with QQ
Villain cold calls from the SB
Everyone else folds.

Flop ($145): KT4
Villain checks
Hero?
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 12:59 PM
I think 3betting to 60 is too much, you IP and you want to isolate the random so making it 25-35 seems better (not that it matters in these games but I would do that with a wide range so keeping bet sizing is always nice).

Heads up, this is an easy check back and re-evaluate the turn. This is one of those way ahead or way behind situations so betting doesn't accomplish much.

The only hands your beating that he can cold call a huge 3bet oop with is 99, JJ, AQ all of which have bad equity and little chance of catching up.

This hand falls under the same philosophy as KK heads up with an A-hi flop in position, also betting it puts you in weird river spots.

Check back the flop and see what he does on the turn, you could go for 1 street of value either on the turn or river. Your in position, use it for pot control.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 01:49 PM
Agree with above except for the PF raise. I'd say 45 min and 60 max. Any smaller and you're liable to end up 4-5 handed.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 02:33 PM
Only reason I think the 3-bet is a touch too large is because you are new to the table and don't quite know the dynamics. And trust me, I'm a huge fan of offensively large preflop raises at aggro donk 1/2nl tables since they love to over call. Otherwise, I probably would have made it $45 - $50 but $60 isn't too bad...

I think V's range should be 99+ and suited broadways but again we are new here and just don't know much about V.

I really can't see this villain trying to turn JJ into a bluff when our range should look like QQ+, AK. But again, we don't know if he is Level 1 or Level 2. If V has a hand that we beat he's probably just completely surrendering and checking through till river.

Based on that, I'm probably just not even bothering to b/f and I would just let this check through till river and maybe value bet river $60.

Most players at this level are rarely if ever going to try to turn JJ or 99 or AQ into a bluff. So if he does bet, we can be confident he has AK or hit a set. I discount AA because most villains at this level can't help but 4-bet shove AA as a reflex...
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 05:12 PM
I'd check, only because we have blockers to straight draws. If the board were something like K78, I'd c-bet for value, as there are lots of draws and combo draws to extract value from, along with hands like 99-JJ.

But on KT4r, we block AQ and QJ, so we're really hoping to get looked up by Tx or JJ, which is a pretty tiny range. There are basically no bad turn cards for our hand, so I'm fine with checking.

Betting 100% of turns if he checks again.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 05:59 PM
I'd have made it 45 pre since it's my default for unknown tables. 60 just tends to spook tighter tables. I check back the flop because betting doesn't accomplish a whole lot of good things for us. Bet turn if he checks, most likely fold if he bets the turn for any reasonable amount.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 10:24 PM
Yeah, flop check seems pretty standard, and as played it gets checked through.
I feel $45-50 at an unknown table is better, but whatever. It went heads up, and he's IP so I can't hate on it too much.

Hand:
Pre Flop:
Villain posts SB, BB posts
Fold
Fold
Random raises to $10
Random calls
Random calls
Fold
Hero OTB raises to $60 with QQ
Villain cold calls from the SB
Everyone else folds.

Flop ($145): KT4
Villain checks
Hero checks

Turn ($145) 9
Villain bets $50
Hero?
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 11:42 PM
He is only betting 1/3 pot. I would call turn and call a river bet if draws miss like clubs/any straight draws.

I mean he did call a big 3bet oop so he could have AK, 10s, or 9s. Its pretty hard for him to have a hand like AQc since you have it. I actually could see folding the turn since all the value hands he bets on the turn beat you (He doesn't bet JJ here).

In game I would just call the turn bet and re-evaluate river (since its only 1/3 pot it seems like a draw trying to get a good price instead of AK or sets going for value). But then again I don't see many hands we can beat when he calls oop preflop.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-07-2013 , 11:50 PM
He has elected to take my least favorite option and bet an amount where I prob end up calling to see the river action.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 02:29 AM
As soon as V cold calls the huge 3b, alarm bells are going off. He just has to have KK+/AK here. Even with the small turn bet I prob fold.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 02:41 AM
Hero would bet AA and AK on the flop. Villain probably puts hero on KK, QQ or JJ. Villain could be turning some random hand (or JJ) into a bluff figuring he can get QQ to fold with a river shove and he'll find out right here if hero has KK for cheap ($50).
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 02:46 AM
If you're going to bet the flop it needs to be a b/f, black guys are passive, so I'd even further reduce the -turning hands into a bluff- range, and there aren't really any draws out there to be betting.

You don't have much invested, pro for folding. I don't think this is ever a stab though, so if you call here there's going to be a river bet to call also.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValueBluff
Villain could be turning some random hand (or JJ) into a bluff figuring he can get QQ to fold
This is just never happening. Unless it's Ivey/Paul Darden in 15 years, no middle-aged black guy will ever have these thoughts. Barely anyone will try to do this at low stakes.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValueBluff
Villain could be turning some random hand (or JJ) into a bluff figuring he can get QQ to fold with a river shove and he'll find out right here if hero has KK for cheap ($50).
LOL @ thinking a random player is capable of doing that.

$50 is not really a bluff bet. It looks more less a "where am I at?" bet and such bet could have several meaning...

I know some horrible players who overvalue ATs, and this could be one of such player.

Anyhow, hand is too high of variance against unknown.

I think I am betting flop in an unknown table, just because checking makes it too damn difficult to play.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 09:20 AM
Calling turn is pretty bad, since we have no implied odds. He also never has JJ here. So what do we really beat?
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValueBluff
Hero would bet AA and AK on the flop. Villain probably puts hero on KK, QQ or JJ. Villain could be turning some random hand (or JJ) into a bluff figuring he can get QQ to fold with a river shove and he'll find out right here if hero has KK for cheap ($50).
This is exactly how thinking players level themselves.

90% of 1/2nl players are incapable of the above thought process.

He is betting turn for value.

we simply have to puke fold here.

If V has JJ/QQ or AQ he is just checking through hoping to bink his card.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-08-2013 , 06:02 PM
Eh, I guess folding here is right given that V is stacked to call off with AK but that $60 3b sets you nicely to insta shove ($140) over his $50 turn bet. With AK he's putting in another $140 hoping to chop? Plus he could have JJ or even QQ.

Smart money is probably to fold but I think shoving is fine too.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-09-2013 , 02:24 AM
Dont ever do what the above poster has said to do, that is the most spew line you can possibly take.
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-09-2013 , 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamaican66
I think 3betting to 60 is too much, you IP and you want to isolate the random so making it 25-35 seems better (not that it matters in these games but I would do that with a wide range so keeping bet sizing is always nice).

Heads up, this is an easy check back and re-evaluate the turn. This is one of those way ahead or way behind situations so betting doesn't accomplish much.

The only hands your beating that he can cold call a huge 3bet oop with is 99, JJ, AQ all of which have bad equity and little chance of catching up.

This hand falls under the same philosophy as KK heads up with an A-hi flop in position, also betting it puts you in weird river spots.

Check back the flop and see what he does on the turn, you could go for 1 street of value either on the turn or river. Your in position, use it for pot control.
yea spot on
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote
08-09-2013 , 04:24 AM
Well, your sizing of your 3b is what gets you into trouble here. If you're 3b to 60, why the hell not buy in for 400-500??? You're committing such a huge portion of your stack here preflop and now you're in a tough situation where you're WA/WB, drawing pretty thin to a couple outs. I would probably choose first to fold here, shove second, and crying call for my third option if I had to. Goodness. I don't know if you can even call here with only 90 behind. This whole play was so backward. If you were gonna commit yourself, you should have just shoved the flop with your 140.

Last edited by djdiggydiggy; 08-09-2013 at 04:25 AM. Reason: Slow pony is slow
QQ heads up vs total unknown second hand at the table Quote

      
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