Hi all,

2/5. One of hero's first hands at the table, UTG fish limps, hero isos black QQ UTG with $300 behind to $20, decent reg UTG+2 3! $80, all fold to hero. Hero is near the end of the month around where he wants to be profit-wise and wants to avoid big flips/coolers AI pre, so just calls. Bad reason not to jam? Meh. It's how I felt in the moment.

Flop ($175): 6-8-9cch. Hero checks, V checks. Seems like AK or possibly trapping AA figuring it can go in over two streets with my stack size.

Turn: 6d. Hero checks, V $85, hero calls. Prepared to call it off on clean rivers.

River ($245): Js. Hero checks, V checks. X/jam turn? Lead jam turn?

Thanks,
DT

I like the line as played. Decent reg's 3! range UTG+2 should be pretty tight given your UTG open, maybe TT+/AQs/AK, so 4 betting just folds the hands you beat and bloats the pot for when a cooler is in the works.

Post-flop, you are right to go into c/c mode as its a clear WA/WB scenario.

Line is good. V can def be trapping with AA, KK hoping to get it in on later streets. I think betting turn/river presents a huge issue if we get shoved on which is why I like the c/call. With this runout though, I agree that we can't fold on any street with those stack sizes.

Being so short I would just jam on the turn here.
If you were deeper I can understand why c/c seems better.
60bb’s to start the hand I think x/jam turn is better by a fair bit.

OK so let me start off by saying that in a pure "GTO environment" 9handed UTG limp (balanced limping range lol), UTG+1 raises to 4x, UTG+2 3bets to 4x, QQ is a fold even 60bb. So disclaimer calling instead of shoving isn't that crazy, because folding isn't that crazy from a certain perspective.

That being said, that example is so far from live 2/5 reality and you're making a pretty big mistake preflop by just calling pre oop 60bb deep. I'd be 4bet jamming here all day and the logic "4bet just folds the hands you beat and the hands that you don't beat call blah blah blah" is just blatantly wrong.

I'm no expert on shortstack play but I know we under-realize our equity oop with QQ, and QQ is way ahead of the average 2/5 player's 3bet range in this spot. If you're looking for hands to include as a trap vs a wild player (which at the SPR and huge 3bet sizing is probably a good idea) then use AA and maybe some KK, because they are much less vulnerable and do not under-realize as much as QQ.

OP if you are just having some fun playing poker and the money isn't necessary for your life then by all means avoid coolers, have fun, play however you want to play for whatever reasons. However, since you're posting on a strategy forum I assume you're looking to improve your overall play/winrate. So stop being a pussy and don't use fear as a determining factor in your strategy.

lol. There’s some preflop strat also. At $300 to start the hand ripping pre would be the most likely way to win the monies.

Can you explain why? I don't say this with sass but this [apparently flawed] logic makes sense in my head.

What range would you put V on in this particular configuration (UTG + 1 raises, UTG +2 3 bets) as opposed to the standard 3bet range for 2/5 players generally w/o regard to configuration?

Being so short, just stuff it preflop. Also the original open is small

Yeah I missed that we only had $300 (my mind was thinking $500). I don't mind a 4 bet as much in this case, although I still think line as played is fine.

Could you please expand on why we under-realise equity OOP with QQ?

Jarretman would (or hopefully still will) have a better answer, but it’s mostly to do with the times that V makes a bad fold when we jam, or we make a bad fold postflop when we don’t jam (ex: king on board and V jams after we check, we fold, but really V has A-Qs etc.).
Also, there’s times that V will call with JJ or A-Qs and there’s times that V will level themselves and fold A-K (which is an amazing result for us). Additionally, there’s the times that we don’t jam pre, and the board is favourable for us (no king or ace on board) so we GII now, but V correctly folds A-K at this point.
In a nutshell, we under realize our equity OOP.

Does look like a relatively straightforward 4! shove pre with that stack. We also only made it 4x after limper which seems a bit weak and could have induced a 3!.

All that siad, the thing that bothers me the most is your comment on "being near where I want to be month-end." You know that doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme and if you see it affecting your decision-making, then the highest EV play is to get up and wait until the calendar turns over or until you can play again without that in your mind.

This is your biggest leak in the hand ainec at all.

I know I started playing scared. Too bad. If I’d jammed I’d have beat AK.

You should really drop down to 1/3 or 1/2 until you can develop the total confidence in yourself that's needed to excell in today's game and realize in your mind that it's 100% impossible, I can assure you, to play winning poker and avoid flips or finding out someone's at the top of their range.
You can't prevent flips (or getting your money in when you were a dog) and still be above a break even player imho.

Sent from my SM-G965U using 2+2 Forums

Being under rolled is a tough spot to be in. If you can't put it all in, you can get pushed around. Take it from me because I know from getting pushed around. I play better in a 2/5-500, than I do in a 2/5-1000 game. Pride makes me sit in both games. I used to play in some 2/5/10 games. I don't play 5/10, ever. I finally figured out that 2/5/10 was bigger than 5/10.

Winning is the name of the game. If I win more at 1/2, 1/3 than I do at 2/5, which game should I play?

Trivial jam pre. If you can't stuff it in here just leave the table.

You act as if OP plays in nosebleeds or very tough reg infested games.

He doesn’t. Gii’ing here when your avg live reg 3b to a sizing of 4x after you iso, UTG +2 vs UTG + 1, will hardly ever be a great situation. It’s probably slightly +EV. Hell even if he folded in these spots everytime he still could be a huge winner in the games easily

from what i can tell OP seems to be making decent $, which probably most players/lurkers here cant say for themselves. Yeah sure OP plays a good amount of hands poorly but i respect that he has the balls to post them even when he knows the forum will flame him, and especially him. But i can guarantee every poster here plays hands terribly on a regular basis, whether they want to admit it or not, and many will choose to omit posting them to avoid flame

Today’s live games are extremely juicy. They always will be. You could avoid flips for the rest of your live career and still making a killing at the tables. They’re literally waiting to donate money to you, saying that avoiding flips means you are 100% a losing player or breakeven, or the occasional scared money, is absolutely ludicrous. If someone isnt making money it’s because they have a bunch of very huge EV dragging leaks not bc theyre afraid to flip

Huge +1 to all of this.
This is all seriously so accurate.
I get frustrated with some of the juicy spots that DT posts b/c they feel rare for me lately, but I also legitimately respect that he keeps posting them when he knows that he’ll get flamed for his play.
I also totally agree that you can make good money while avoiding flip spots, you just won’t maximize your WR. On the other hand, you will make less money more consistently.

Thanks mate, now I get it

No worries.

It turns out this hand was a good example of exactly what Jarretman was getting at. Either V would have made a bad fold pre with A-K and we take down the money with risking a coin flip spot, or he would have called and we would have doubled up as the board ran clean for us.

AP, we don’t double up b/c V won’t commit more $ with no ace or king up, but we also allow V to see the full board runout here without risking more $. This is why I preferred jamming over the turn bet AP, but jamming pre at this stack depth is unquestionably best.

and the verdict is with a short stack 4-bet AI pre or fold
calling is the worst option

and if your looking to avoid coin flips then easy fold to the 3

I certainly know I butcher hands on a regular basis, but I suspect like me, lots of people don't post them because we know we butchered them. The most value to posting is going to be hands you don't know if you should have played it differently.

If you're not willing to jam 60bbs pre here with QQ then you are playing scared money and need to gtfo of this game. The whole point of short stacking is to simplify your strategy and get all in pre or OTF with a big hand. And here we are just calling a 3bet OOP with the 3rd best hand in Texas Hold Em. You have some mental game issues to work through IMO.

You're missing the meta effects here -- OP is a known nit in his room, if he's getting 3-bet by a regular, reg is going to show up with KK/AA disproportionately much. People are not 3-betting OP light because OP maybe raises like TT+ and AK in this spot.

Does OP have a mental block around "maintaining pace for the month" or not viewing each hand as just one more hand in a long series that'll make up their career? Yes. Are they incorrect to not want to GII with QQ knowing their own meta-effects? I don't think so.

Looking at the strength of their hand in a vacuum just doesn't work because it's a levels situation -- either "he thinks that I'm tight, so he's preying on that and 3-betting me light because he's crazy, and so I should give him more rope to continue bluffing and c/f to A/K boards" or "he thinks that I'm tight, so he knows he needs to have KK/AA here to 3-bet me."