Table is mostly loose passive.
hero's image- tag leaning toward nit

$2/5 NL (9 handed)
UTG Hero($500)
EP ($1500)
EP+1($700)
MP ($1000)
MP+1 ($800)
CO ($600)
Button ($300)
SB ($500)
BB ($500)

Hero is dealt QQ utg

Hero raises to 20 utg, 4 calls

Sizing could have been a little bigger like 25 or 30

Flop ($94) 743
Hero first to act checks, MP bets 30, 2 calls, Hero tanks for a bit and c/r to 230.

Not sure about my sizing maybe I should have gone a bit smaller like 195. Basically trying to price out fds and sds and thin the field.

How does my line compare to simplying cbetting the flop?

preflop is fine.

c/r with QQ at what you describe a loose/passive table is terrible. An overaggressive table sure, but here you need to lead 100%.

Absolutely!!!

If table is loose passive you can't go for a c/r because they are loose passive and odds are high that they just let flop check through. Now, if the table was super aggro, then absolutely set that c/r up and knock it out of the park...

but I agree, you need to lead for a massive overbet on pot. And BECAUSE they are loose/passive they will call because that is what loose/passives do. They overcall.

Overall, with that much money on the table, a $20 preflop raise is almost a pot sweetener raise. Preflop raise probably needs to be $30 - $45.

As played vs 4 villains, glad you got the c/r, should be called by all flush draws and even 88-JJ overpairs and maybe even ******ed pair+straight draws.

As far as the sizing on your c/r, meh, no real difference between $195 and $230 in this spot but I would have made it $190 for the psychological aspect. Keeping it under $200 will keep in more fish. And if they call the c/r then they have to call almost all turn shoves.

Yes I definitely should have raised more pf.

cbet 125 sound ok?

I think my c/r can be sized under 200 and could be more enticing to draws and we can still comfortablely shove move turns.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by c/r. You fold out a lot of the stuff you want to get value from over multiple streets. My line would simply be bet bet bet.

Check raising if you narrowed it to say, a button caller pre who you know would bet a flop like this would be a move I'd be keen on, but with 4 to act behind you're letting the inevitable flush draw get there for free. I'd rather fire here, and then c/r a blank turn if you'd narrowed the field sufficiently. Otherwise, fight FPS, go for the fat value you're getting here from the 20 callers behind you.

I think leading out $90 - $130-ish is about right. Despite the large bet villains can still put us on AK and call us down light or they can call on their draw and we can prison rape them on the turn.

The consensus seems to be bet, jam > c/r, jam thanks for your thoughts guys.

bet 70

What worse hand call your c/r here that you're getting more value from than betting? Seems like an overplayed hand on a wet board. A big c/r to "take it down" before the board gets scary.

results?

Not a flop we want to really see. Bet fold to r

This is a hand you can play a number of ways. I would like to see an UTG open for at least $25/30 to maybe get one or two less players involved behind.

You can play this Flop either bet ($70ish) or check/call. If you c/r here you have turned your hand face up and are only going to get hands that beat you or heavy draws that beat you to stick around. I don't like to give draws 2 cards to draw to if I can avoid it so I like bet out more, but I can c/call some too. In this case here I think you needed to bet out with so many in the hand unless you are sure you want to stack off eventually anyway. If you get raised here, then you have to make a choice and if you get out, you will get out for less than folding to a shove after your c/raise.

Your c/r sizing is fine for me. I like to go 2x the bet ($60) plus at least 70% of the pot (which was around $190) at the time. So $190 would be the min. As you did, a larger raise is probably required since there are more players involved to act and if one calls, then some others might feel more compelled as well.

As I indicated, your c/raising will narrow your range considerable more than just a standard cbet would. So from that prospective, your hand is face up and your (many) opponents have the advantage of choosing whether to gamble or not. GL

Please don't post results. Results skew discussion. Always wait until the strategy talk becomes sporadic. Actually, it's probably best to never see the results, but I know our curiosity gets the best of us.

I go bigger pre. Being OOP, we want smaller SPRs and less than 2 callers. In my experience, 20 often gets too many callers. I go 25-30.

Standard lead on the flop. I don't go too big because you can give hands like 88-TT a reason to fold. I'm going 65.

I disagree with a c/r for the very reasons above. Also, if you're going to do it, then your sizing needs work. You just put half your stack in and effectively committed yourself while scaring virtually any hand that we beat. Make it a size where you can fold to a reship.

+1....think you got it right all around.

What happened after the c/r??

This is marginal, if we get action on this flop were going to be beat (4 callers pre yikes) or were going to be up against a combo draw.

I did get the benefit of slightly more info by checking the flop. I think the 1/3 pot bet and two calls indicated tp and fd/sd type hands. I dont think lp villains are going to over call the flop with 2p+. There aren't really any good turn or river cards for our hand but many cards to improve their hands.

I understand leading here is probably best because we can still get stacks in easily by the river. Leading for around a psb is good.

As played, what do you think of my c/r sizing?

I understand I am commiting myself to the hand at this point which is fine because I believe I have the best hand and want to thin the field.

65 seems a little small in a 5 way pot.

Results -

You got the best result from a play that minimizes value.

flop chr is aids

You should keep small because it is a 5 way pot. This hand is the definition medium strength and you're treating it like it's the nuts. You can get value from many worse hands, but our hand isn't strong enough for stacks. If the money gets in here, then you're hoping for 60% equity. Often times you're crushed.

If we're going to bet for information, why don't we just blast all our money in and know we're behind when we're called? Who cares about getting a little more info, especially at the sacrifice of all the money you left behind on the flop.

I would never cbet so small on a board this wet either, just bet $75-$80. No one folds TP or any draw, but they can easily check them.

Your sizing is massive (what worse hands even call a bet this big unless you're spewing frequently? Pretty much none, and that's why all villain folded and you got next to no value out of your strong hand.) and you've pretty much turned you hand face up. You rep close to zero bluffs like this, but you rep close to 100% of your range by simply cbetting. You can cbet on the bigger side and get just as much value without complete over repping your hand and having to stack off with one pair.

If they're tank folding we easily made the min on this hand. You took a hand that you could have got three streets of value from and just made the min.

+1 to the three previous posts, but esp this one. Except, we didn't even get the best results, we missed a ton of value with a strong hand.

Ok I get it. Simple enough, bet flop for value. Draws will call a bet much more frequently then they call a c/r with. I don't want the risk the flop getting checked through. I am in big trouble when I get snapped off by sets and straights.

This^. You butchered hand with the c/r., lost all value from worse, but you will one day learn how bad it is when you get snapped off or 3bet shoved on that flop by better and you bloated the pot with 1 pair and weird SPR 5-ways. Lead the flop next time. Your c/r lets essentially lets any player spanning the entire spectrum play perfectly against you.

Lesson learned. That's the important thing. The great thing about 2+2 is you didn't go home thinking you made this awesome check raise play. You posted it here and found out it was a bad check raise play that worked out OK. There's times for it, but this wasn't it, and now you know so next time you won't get stacked. Be happy that you made a little money while making a mistake and even better you know it was a mistake and aren't perceptually making losing plays.

20 is too small utg, make $25 minimal. I've experienced with this in any ep spot and playing a bloated pot oop is going to cost you in longrun. Makes hand easier to play and you can put a villain on a hand better, particularly the first one in

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