5/10 with 20 straddle

V is a reg...high 3 bet frequency especially oop.

2000 effective

V straddles utg+1

folds to hero in mid position who raises to $70 with QJcc

folds to V is the straddle who 3 bets to $280

Hero calls

Flop(575): Jh 3h 4s

V bets $300

Hero?

so my standard line here with this hand is to just call. but I was wondering if there is any merit to raising or shoving? SPR is around 3, we don't block any heart draws, a heart on the turn is very bad for our hand, ace or king is also bad so I do think our hand needs some protection. we are also probably stacking off against aces and kings on safe run outs anyways. and unless he's c-betting and will continue barreling with complete air, most his bluffs will have decent equity.

what do you guys think? is this always a call on the flop and never a raise or a jam?

Your range for a 3.5x raise from MP of a 3-blind game shouldn't be so wide that you have to fight tooth-and-nail with this hand. Flatting pre isn't even strictly necessary. Calling flop and folding a bad turn certainly isn't disaster.

Shoving for protection with a hand like this makes more sense OOP where a call lets villain actualize his full equity. Position gives us the ability to get the money in when our equity goes up and get away from our hand when it goes down.

i like call here, you just have to fold all bad turns and call the good ones (or shove when checked to).

as far as raising, kind of tough spot here but you’re not getting folds against all hands better and even KJ/AJ seems better to shove with if we wanted to start shoving Jx hands in position to get value.

We’re also gonna get called by lots of AK/AQ/KQ type flush draws so our fold equity is only against undercard holdings that we’re already ahead of and will be far enough ahead to call off their turn jam OTT

I probably just call and see a turn. If he is 3! wide pre he has air on this flop a lot. See what he does on the turn and make a decision.

Very easy call, and fold the turn unimproved.

Easy call and don’t fold turn

Can't we just sheepishly fold to the 3 pf?

^ no you may not

what about ace/king/heart turn?

Well those wouldn’t be the cards we wanna see and you’ll have to fold to a lot of sizings when turn shows up like that. But folding to every turn bet is gonna be way 2 exploitable.

I could be wrong, but I feel like 60% of our opening range outperforms QJs here, given it's a 14bb 3! 100bbs deep.

This. Well, many of them anyway.

Well I’m folding QJs preflop vs a 3bet. This hand is so classically terrible and suffers from REverse Implied Odds for days. We have much better hands to take a stand with.
Also if we’re expecting to get 3bet a lot we can and should size down our preflop raise size. Maybe as low as 50 or 60.


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^ sorry man ur way off here.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, I'm just interested in your thought process, especially if you think this is WAY off. I'm personally opening a squeaky ~11% here (essentially EP of a 3-blind game with straddler being an active 3ber), and at this depth/sizing, I would assume AQo, 99, and AJs all outperform QJs. Do you think I'm way off with our opening range, with my assumptions about which hands play better here as a flat, with my assumption we can fold the bottom 40% of our range, or that we should be playing more exploitatively here given our reads?

we’re in position and deep enough to call 3b with lots of suited connectors as long as we don’t butcher boards like this one. lolposting is on the money here

also opening 11% live poker from middle position would make me want to die

How is ~3 spr deep enough to play a suited connector?



(I’ve always used the rule of 10 and 20, we want 10x behind to set mine, and 20x behind to mine a suited connector)

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these rules are when you know almost for sure that you are behind your opponents range, for example when you play a super nit who only 3 bets hands like aces and kings and you are trying to crack his hand. this is definitely not the case here as V is willing to 3 bet with hands that QJs is ahead of or flipping against. sure, we could be behind, but overall I think we are doing ok vs his range. also, QJs is not just a suited connector, its a hand that can flop a top pair type hand where you can easily continue, where as this is not the case with hand like 65s.

BTW, I agree with everyone that flatting the flop is best and that's what I did in game. raising the flop was just an afterthought that I had after the hand was over. the turn was the 6c and V checked. now there's $1175 with 1400 behind. I guess that this awkward stack size on the turn is why I started thinking about raising the flop in the first place. anyways what would you do after V checks the turn? check back and turn this hand into a bluff catcher? bet small? or jam?

i like to jam here

I think jam. You are happy to take down this relatively big pot with top pair. He might even fold hands that have you crushed.

what hands in his 3b range that have us crushed are folding?

also OP, why are you worried about a heart on the turn? you have way more flushes than him


i think QJs is stone bottom of our call range pre 100bb effective
as played, call flop
as played, turn can go several ways, i see merits for checking and betting

this might be unpopular but i think we can b/f turn for about half pot, unless he's insane

If our plan is to get all the money in on safe runouts then it makes no sense to just call the flop. The pot is already huge, our opponent virtually always has outs against us, and we can't even know which scare cards actually hit him. The only reason to flat the flop is if we have a read that our opponent is a monkey and will donk off the rest of his money with garbage if given the opportunity. Otherwise we're just playing a bluff-catcher face up as a bluff-catcher and letting our opponent control the pot size. And the cards that look like good bluff cards for our opponent really are cards that miss us and hurt our equity against his range, so we're going to be bleeding EV on future streets. In other words, it's a pretty basic reverse implied odds spot.

Raising the flop makes us look FOS and forces the guy who is threebetting a huge range to find a bunch of crap to stack off with to avoid being exploited. (If the guy threebets most hands that he plays OOP then he should have medium pocket pairs, etc, which are too strong to get away from.) Stacks are effectively 100bb so if we're not happy getting money in on a flop that hits us this well then we shouldn't have called off so much money preflop.

ran pio on this spot, qj of cc is playing as a pure call on the flop, your cusp hand for shoving is aj/kj which is playing a mix aj leans to shoving based on the assumptions i made...which makes sense as kj/aj blocks some more of value range and can beat some other of villains b/c range.
your other raises are qq/kq of hh, j10hh, and some slow played kk/aa but mostly qq
on the turn when an a shows qj is basically a pure fold, but you can continue by shoving on some decent turns for protection mostly which i thought was interesting. gl

pio for a $5/10 game? lol. i dont mind fold pre. his range wil be a lot stronger then people think