Very passive table pre

V young asian has over bet Pot 3 times. Like betting 400 into a 50 pot. Lol he has over 500 to start the hand

Hero 30s white guy hasn't shown any hands. Won two pots in the first hour one on flop and one on turn

OTTH
Hero in MP1 open limps with QJ(do you guys open this hand?)
V limps
Button limps
Blinds limp

5 ways to the flop
OTF (10 before rake) 89T
Blinds check
Action on Hero ???


Just want to see how everyone would play this one

Yeah I would raise pre
And bet flop

QJo is whatever from MP. I generally don't limp but I could raise or fold depending.

On the flop bet $8. The pot is small and you are going to get calls on this board. You almost always have the best hand and with the Qc may have outs even if somebody did flop a flush.

Ideally you get multiple calls and hit the Jc on the turn. More practically one caller would be nice, then a low brick turn where you can bet for value again. Then check/evaluate on river. You are going to lose some money here if somebody flopped a flush because there are so many worse hands that can play.

Definitely bet flop for about pot. If I didn't have the Qc I'd make it $15 and fold to a raise. Since I have the redraw to third nuts, I'd probably make it $8 and would eval if raised, depending on who raised, what their stack is, raise sizing, etc.

Given who you ID as the V, I would likely 3-bet over a raise.

Would you guys bet the same amount if you flopped a small flush

MP1 is the lowjack? Button minus 3?

Fold preflop. Folding > raising 3xbb >> open-calling.

There is just too much likelihood that you will wind up playing easily dominated offsuit junk out of position.

As played preflop, you must bet here, because money won't go in otherwise, and with your third-nut club redraw/blocker you can afford to bet on the small side and be ready to call a reasonably-sized raise. I would bet something like $7 because the pot is smaller than it looks due to the rake.

If you are talking about TJ, QJ, KJ as offsuit junk then yes I limp it on passive tables. I limp and except to get called by worse and let it go multiway. I am trying to get a straight and stack the flopped set/2pair.

I'm not saying raising is wrong or limping is better. This is just what I do to win at live low steaks cash games.

Turn play below
Thank you for your comments

You should've bet $15-20 at least OTF. People don't consider size OTF in multiway limped situations

Now go 45, ideally we'd be betting around 60-70

Dont do that.

I was waiting for someone to say this. Looking back I think this is much better. 2 pair is still calling and the flush draws are still calling

Yes, exactly.

Limping pre is very much -ev. Better to fold.

It's hard to beat the rake with hands like this. Impossible if you limp in.

For one thing, instead of occasionally stealing the blinds, you now occasionally loose your limp when people raise medium or even weak hands behind you and you correctly fold.

The rake is only %10 up to $6

Maybe it is -ev to open limp this hand

I do know I value bet for better sizing and thinner than the whole table I'm at. I would find it hard to believe I'm not making money with QJ off in the long run. I have won several huge pots with it even when it's just limped.

Would you play a game raked at 10% with no max?

Until the pot gets to 6× the limped pot, you are paying the full 10% with a mediocre hand.

Given that it's limped, rather than you being the aggressor, you will mostly be winning with value. Your reply also suggests this.

If qj off is often winning $100+ pots at showdown after everyone limps, your games are insane. But you should still probably open raise.

You don't see people go broke in a limped pot?

I see it all the time.

Not often at all. If I do it's going to be a cooler like set over set. Not qj out kicking q9.

If people often put 200bbs into limped pots with 1 pair hands, I guess, enjoy all the money.

They don't put in 200bbs into limped pots with 1 pair but most of them can't fold 2 pair plus. This has been the biggest leak I have found at live low steaks and me limping pre is just exploiting them not raising pre and stacking off light post.

I agree though in normal games or higher steaks you shouldn't limp. People will just raise and you will have to fold.

This is a situation where I have found stakes make a big difference. At 1/2 I'll see people chase to the river with 7h5c on a board like this. At 2/5 even the fish usually fold situations where they have nothing but weak draws. At 1/2 they will call 3 streets with 98o figuring they are beating busted draws. At 2/5 they might get away from that on the flop when there is multiway action.

At 1/2 you can limp these hands profitably a lot more, both because the risk of being raised is less and because you can get paid more when you hit. At 1/2 you also have the problem that stacks are often shorter and opening raises bigger, leaving you with no implied odds for when you do hit.

As played bet $30 and see what happens. If the action goes berserk hero could even find a fold. It's hard to put all 3 on marginal hands but there are still a lot of worse hands that won't fold.

River below

C/C. He's never calling with a busted FD, but might bet with one.

Bet maybe 75. It's 3 ways. There are hands that can call.

I'd be surprised if V bluffs when checked to.

This surprised me

I like ~60-70 on the river for value.
If just V in pot i'd check call but i don't want him checking behind 3 ways and miss out on 20bb+ of value

If this were an episode of Arrested Developement V would remove a wig and say, "and that's why, you don't open limp/fold QJ off ."

It's just not a hand that's going to be on the right side of coolers much more than on the wrong side. And you are playing oop against everyone but the blinds.

This idea that you are going to make up for all the limp folds and all the 10% rakes when someone has 2p plus and you beat them, playing oop, is just not right.

Plays much better as a raising and cbetting hand. For example, you raise. Bb calls. Flop ace and any other Broadway. You bet repping the ace. If called you have outs.

Plus, like I said, you will pick up blinds rather than lose to limp folds. Like, you limp. Someone raises jt on the button. You fold to a hand you dominate. Pretty bad result, no?

Anyway, there are plenty of reasons this is conventional wisdom.