1/3 NLHE, 9 handed.

V1 - Never seen him before. Looks blue collar, skinny white guy. Mid 40s. Have been playing with him for two hours now and I keep 3-betting him pre, not because I want to target him but I keep getting hands when he opens. 3-bet him with JTs from SB but didn't see he had only 185 back, he 4-bet shoved and V2 (whale, see below) cold called V1s AI. V1 had AA and runout was T-6-6-J-T but I had folded pre. Another hand I 3-bet him with KK and he called, peeled to turn but folded. He crai a 3-way between me him and whale (see below) when I opened 56hh with tight image UTG, him and whale called, 3 ways to 2h-3h-8s, he x, I x, whale bet 105 into 75, I was gonna x/r or x/c but V1 x/r AI for 325 into about 180$ pot, I folded (not sure what you guys think of this?), whale called. V1 had A8o and whale had Q3o and rivered trips to scoop. He's VPIPing about 30% and has been playing for stacks pretty much regardless of runout but has had some premium stuff like AA and KK when he goes AI. So he's happy to go to the felt with TPTK. BB. 697$.


Whale - Has been VPIPing 100%. Plays anything remotely suited or connected and has run hot this session. He buys in multiple times for the max (500) and then eventually runs up a huge stack. Currently sitting on all black and green chips. Over 3k. Best player to have at the table. He's fairly passive but will stab. HH with whale: Hero opens JJ from LP over a few limps, only whale calls from blinds HU to a flop of 8s-5h-4h he donks 30 into 75, I just call IP, turn 2c brick he x, I bet this time, fairly chunky like 110, he calls, river is a Kc kills my action, he x I x, not sure if I miss value when he shows 8h6d. BTN. Covers.

Hero has about 1200$ and is in UTG+1. Has a tight image to whale and V1 probably doesn't care.

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Whale straddles BTN, SB folds, V1 opens to 16, folds to H who sees Q Q and 3-bets to 55, folds to whale who calls, V1 calls, 3-ways in the middle.

Flop 165 - T T 4

V1 checks, Hero thinks and was going to bet 1/3rd but decides to size up because whale is in the hand so bets 80 (thoughts on size?), whale calls, V1 calls. H not liking it.

Turn 405 - 5

V1 leads 150, Hero tanks not sure what this means, takes awhile and whale gets impatient and looks like he wants to fold, Hero calls, whale thinks but then folds, shows his cards to guy next to him like its a huge laydown.

River 705 - 9

V1 jams for 412 total, Hero?

Pre fine. Flop fine.

Turn is tough. I get why you tanked. I think I might just find a tight fold here, but he is leading into 2, so I think a flush draw is unlikely. Perhaps he has some JJ, but a lot of his range is tens.

River is a sigh fold.

Snap-calling this like Phil Hellmuth.

V has demonstrated (in the A8 hand) that he has no understanding of relative hand strength, so in a spot like this, you’re not just beating his bluffs (of which I feel he has a ton here—that tiny turn bet reeks of “let me set my own price with Ah3h”) but just as importantly, you’re beating a lot of worse hands he’s mistakenly betting. for value—66, 77, 88, JJ, Ah5h, Xh9h. With the price, the opponent, and neither of your Queens being a heart, I’m never folding.

If you are beat, I think it’s to quads and not just trips. I can’t see a universe where he’s just over-calling that flop bet with something like JT after the Whale has called—when you hit gin like that, you want to put in a huge raise, cuz you know the Whale will stick around with the 4 or with Hearts, essentially no matter the price (from what you’ve described). You’ll only get tricky with a value hand that’s unbeatable…you’ll have it so locked down you think you need to let your opponents catch up.

Have we seen him bluff so far? Have we seen him turn donk for value yet? Any reads on how wide he is calling 3bets? JTo? ATo?

This one seems close. This line in my experience is weighted towards Tx that is afraid of the flush coming in on turn. That said, villain is spewey and they could maybe have JJ here.

In theory we probably need to mix call or pure call to be unexploitable. I think I lean towards an exploitative fold without history or reads telling us villain takes this line as a bluff. I think overpairs with a heart are more of a fold.

I would check a lot on this flop multiway, and if I bet, I would go 1/4. We have to give some respect for v1 here.

Feels like you’re being driven to value town here but also hard to fold at any spot.

flop might be a check. with the Qh its definitely a check.

yeah idk man. the a8 hand makes me think hes good not bad lol. its a board / spr and a villain that tptk is worth a large amount on and he got the money in great. i think saying he overplayed or over valued his hand is wild given results.

weird ***** hand. youre supposed to call but like idk. the other thing is if we fold this do we fold black aces? i dont really see a difference in the 2 hands. first one in awhile i dunno what to do in. you have to win like 25% of the time so probably pay it off but i expect to have a pure bluff catcher. i can see an argument to raising the turn too.

i dont think i would ever check the flop unless i knew what whale was going to stab ~80% of the time or something absurd

the JJ history hand vs whale is a really clear river bet for like half pot (how much of his range does the King actually improve? does this seem like a guy whos going to fold pairs when the fd misses?)

1. Haven't seen him airball at all
2. Haven't seen him donk
3. Have seen that plays linearly pre when 3-bet. 4-bets AI a lot but just seems to 'go with it' pre with some hands (HH below), calls all 3-bets IP or OOP when he doesn't have premiums. Never folding to a 3-bet. VPIPing about 30-35% like I say so he has a lot of SCs S1Gs and so on. He's been limping a lot too. Probably limps 70% of his VPIPs, opens 30%. Has never folded to a 3-bet but I'm pretty much the only one at the table 3-betting him. He also hasn't been this deep at the table until now.


Added HH: V1 opens EP like UTG or UTG1, I make a tight fold with QJs in HJ as I see whale reaching, one loose passive calls V1's RFI from CO, Whale pops huge like 6x from BTN, V1 4-bet rams about 400$ over the 120$ 3-bet, loose passive CO folds. Flop comes and whale shows A A, V1 shows K 9 and holds when turn and river don't bring 4th .

idk i still think its a really difficult hand. has he gone crazy vs anyone else or just whale? the hh's you posted lead me to believe hes just adjusting to whale. if hes doing the equivalent of 4b jamming k9ss vs anyone that isn't the whale then the hand is a very easy call.

Obvious T is obvious. But is it 3:1 obvious???

I do think this is the crux. Most people are not going to the mat with 88 here.

I think a normal range here is perhaps JJ, and lots of Ts, perhaps down to T9s. Obviously way more combos of Ts. Even if you throw in 10% random ****, I don't think that's enough, and if we're throwing in a bunch of extra random **** then AA, KK, 99, 44, 55 should be in there too.

I would call the river here, not only because of the A8 hand but also this

I didn’t read the OP close enough. Have to call here based on the ‘playing for stacks every runout’ comment.

We have to call cuz we’re getting like 3:1 and don’t have a Heart in our hand.

i see that comment but the actual history hands dont really reflect that to me. the a8 is standard vs anyone once u see the flop, getting in AA pre is also standard, the k9cc is a punt vs almost all people but again id want to see evidence he's doing this vs people that aren't the whale. it feels like if that read was accurate (he just goes all in w anything anytime) this thread doesn't get made because there really wouldn't be much of a question. we have good bluff catcher getting great odds vs bizarre line so if the guy is out of control the answer would just be to call. maybe theres more history hands not posted or something. is a good amount of bb for him to just torch vs an obvious overpair

I'm guilty of those things more than anyone, but folding is absolutely fine here too (especially after reading OP's 2nd post being that he hasn't seen him bluff or donk out before, and this is a 3bet pot so hero has all the big PP's in his range too, not just AK).

Results:

Ahhh, I (kinda) get the turn lead now.

As for results, never underestimate the random **** factor.

yeah, I’ve seen that trick before