Yea this ain't bluffing his stack off haha with nothing.

im hard pressed to see how i proved you're point?
you don't get it.. these guys are not flatting my 3bet to exploit my narrow range these villians do NOT think on this level ok? they want to see flops... hence they dont care or pay attention to the fact we havent played a hand in 3 hours. you'retalking about concepts that we think about here on this forum that the villains are totally oblivious to. no they're not figuring they can play a hand perfect vs a narrow range lmao what a joke!
and theyre not thinking i cant fold my overpair if they did theyd be wrong... i snap folded on the flop OBV **** easy game. these are things we KNOW about THEM. dont be delusional.

and like I've said before.. you trying to balance your range is useless and delusional too, no one is payong attn.. if ur up against some of the few thinking regs in these games you'll know.

River: Wins
8 combos of AJ
4 combos AQ chop (likely calls flop raise)
6 combos flush draws (would have called flop raise)

Lose
1 combo AA
8 combos AK
3 combos 88
8 combos A ,10
3 combos 10,10


So your line is targeting A 10 AJ and Complete air. Highly doubt he 3 barrels bluffs any hand that doesn't include an Ace. He may 3 barrel flush draws. But he would have likely called off his flush draws drawing nearly dead also.

*shakes head*

Why did you 3 bet KK?

For value, we can 3 bet AQ for value also. As you stated we will get called by worse.

Nothing in your generic example implies any villain even made a mistake. If it was a deep game. Then they probably didnt. If it was 100BB. Obviously they suck. And I would also 3 bet AQ for value.

Looks like a case of button clicking to me. He had no idea where he was at. But jammed river because he didn't want to check. He isn't exactly bluffing with AJ. What hands could he expect to fold? Highly doubt he thought to himself. Hey I am gonna bomb turn for 2/3 pot. Leaving me less than 1/2 pot size bet on river. And I can get AK and AQ to fold.

Still doubt he fires 3 barrels with JJ-KK

obviously the whole point of my post was that they suck bro lol you are being so dense... yes it was 100bb

how can you compare 3betting aq and kk wtf seriously just because theyre both for value cmon
yes i understand you will get called by worse (most of the time, sometimes youll get called by ak too you will bend yourself over) 3betting aq and thats completely irrelevant its already been explained multiple times in this thread why 3betting aqs is to be careful about and only in certain spots, and even why 3betting aqo is better than 3betting aqs, go back re read

Thanks for enlightenment. I will try to be less dense. I know now to not raise AQ in position.

Because he may have AK.

Couldn't he have AK if we flat? Or does he have to declare he has AK before flop?

We should be bluffing alot more, if he is only calling AK+.

Assuming 88+ A10+ (assuming he auto cbets)

If he is only calling a raise with AK or better. Then we can raise 3x (almost pot). He is folding 80% of time. We only need him to fold 50%.

Reason I don't like bluffing alot on this board is I think he is calling lighter alot. So if we don't like our chances of a bluff. Then we can also raise for value here.

Worst case scenario. We end up getting it in with good equity vs sets and Ak.

If he is checking 99-KK. Do you think he is double barreling A10 and AJ?

villian raises 5bb we flat he cbets 8bb we flat he bets turn 15bb we flat n river 30bb we lose 60bb

or we 3bet and lose 300bb

yes he cud have ak if we flat... and we could lose a lot less..

seriously if u reread thread im sure ull agree with the comments on 3betting aq

Villain raised 7BB.

How is that getting big value with AQ against bit ches.

And if your losing 300 BB regularly with TP2K in 3 bet pots. Your making big mistakes, definitely shouldn't be 3 betting AQ.

lol it was hypothetical the point was u lose more when u 3bet...how is what getting big value? i highly doubt u reread thread

mikko u were talking about random llsnl villlians playing perfect postflop earlier (with j10 vs kk) haha. either you're obviously trolling or u need to go bak to the begining of all the llsnl threads n read all of them. i think you just trying to find ways to be hostile and u have no interest in contributing anything of value.

+1
Everybody is being result oriented.
With this line, u will go broke before you even realize it.

seems like a standard call down spot. No point in raising flop or turn and AQ is way to strong to fold the river at that price. Call and expect to be good more than enough of the time to be profitable.

we arent taking this line everytime, we judge situations i dont think its results oriented and its been explained endlessly in this thread why this line is best and raising is counterproductive and total aids in this spot
yep

Asking questions to spark a debate is not being hostile. Shaking your head and calling people dense is being hostile.

Take your advice and reread thread. See how results oriented it is.

For 1. I think Villain never plays perfect against us. As I clearly stated before. Your main argument against raising flop is flawed. How can you expect him to play perfect vs a raise. When he obviously made huge mistakes, in this hand.



Your partialy correct here!!!!!



Plus you guys haven't even explored possibility that we lose max here more often then we win max.





This is just wrong. If we are flatting flop to keep his range wide and bluffs in. How can we ever fold river given the price we are getting?

I for one agree with mikko, preflop is an easy 3bet. V1 raised 3.5x in CO (straddled pot) AQs has a ton of value

So what percent of flops are you folding after V2 reraises to $135 and then bets out $150 on flop? Are you floating every flop? Floating "most of those flops" hardly seems standard and seems to put you in a much tougher position than if we just reraises preflop.

I would have super small calling 3 bet range here. 10-6-2 doesn't crush my range.

I could definitely hit K-7-2 flop though

I like your river call. Think if we ever find a fold it is on turn. I am never folding turn. River 10 sucks. But can't fold now.

I do think raising flop is more ev+. For reasons I have explained. I think we make less mistakes if we raise flop. Force him to make bigger mistakes.

Look at mistakes he made in this hand. He squeezed with AJ OOP (not ideal squeeze hand).
His sizing on turn is horrendous. If he is planning to jam river as bluff.

His bluff/value bet on river is odd. Can't realley tell what he was doing. But if he checks. Maybe you check back AK and AQ, bet your missed flush draws. Either way his river bet looks realley bad. If it is a bluff, your not deep enough. If it was value.....well how could it realley ever be for value?

Given his bad play in the hand. I am most certain he makes big mistakes if we raise flop also.

this is just wrong, how can you not see, he made mistakes because WE LET him and look at how powrrful it is to let these idiots do that!!!! as soon as u 3bet pre or raise flop he makes no more mistakes (more than likely) hence u allow him to play perfect you are being WAY too ambitious to Assume he continues to make even bigger mistakes when we start raising this is completely flawed thinking just like your thinking random llsnl villians are flattin huge 3bets with j10 pre vs a tite rAnge to play perfect post. (this isn't online and this isn't 1000nl)

Even more crucially, on top of all this, by raising u could run into the top of the range too no? then ur the one making mistakes by putting in ur whole stak with a FD or folding when u stak him om club turns or rivers

btw i said u were being dense cuz u were, seemingly on purpose, but maybe i was wrong and u jus neded more help recognizing your flawed thinking, sry

i disagree completely that thread is results oriented id like to hear opinions of some of the other posters on this who took the time to explain (very thoroughly and in LAMEN's terms) why its aids to raise this flop

Then simply give us range of hands he is betting or bluffing on river. We can do the math.

Give a range hands he bet on turn.

Once again, by calling flop, turn and river. It doesn't eliminate the times he has us crushed.

He isn't checking Ak, AA,88, on river. He may not jam AK on flop.

We block a majority of his bluffs. By holding 2 key clubs. The 8 of clubs blocks a couple more.

With range given (think by you) of 77+ A10+. How many hands is he even turning into bluffs?

You are all over the place in this thread.

From raising pre could be good. To it being terrible. For awful reasons because 2% time we get coolered by AK.

Then it was it could be correct to fold river.

To we have showdown value (after results where given).

I can clearly show how my line is plus EV.

Line taken would also be plus EV.

Argument is which line is more +EV.

That depends on how Vilain would react to a raise on flop. How often is he truly bluffing River. (Rarely is my guess).

Given the range that was stated. He has zero flush draws. Meaning he has to be bluffing with exactly A-J, AQ, 99, JJ, QQ, KK.

This is second time where you are worried about small portion of his range.
We have easy +EV call if raised on flop.

What happens if he had top of range if we flat flop?

Same outcome. We go broke. Or we catch up. Only we are making mistake on turn, by calling solely for a club draw.

this was all discussed earlier hero made a close call

im not saying dont 3bet aq cuz of ak lol thats being dense isnt it it was just something to take into account... an example of the tediousness of playing with llsnl typical v's who dont 4bet ak AND even jj/qq ! in these environments it just becomes a bit more valuable to chill pre and not bloat poats, murder our spr, spike the variance!!! lowering the skill level post! and turn our aq into a mediocre hand by blowing out a tremendous part of v's sexy wide ranges