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Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Preflop Decision - 3bet or call?
View Poll Results: Hero's action
3bet - you will have more value vs deep stack
8 66.67%
Flat - you would be overplaying AJo
3 25.00%
Flat - you have position and its more likely you will stack someone if you have more opponents
1 8.33%

12-29-2012 , 04:34 PM
1/2 live NLHE, 5 handed
HJ folds, CO raises to 10, Hero is button and has AJo.

Significant data:
CO has 650
Hero covers
SB has 200
BB has 250

Hero believes CO is not super strong - rule JJ+, AK out of CO range.
Hero is a 2/5-5/10 reg who has massive postflop edge on all players.
Hero did a particularly crazy move and showed a bluff recently.
Hero has a large PFR atm.
Hero only recently joined the table (3-4 orbits?).
CO has a relatively low PFR - probs 15% - obv with limited stats.
CO has not shown down a hand yet
CO has played most hands passively.
CO will not fold to a 3bet (esp vs Hero)
CO is aware hero is a strong player

Options:
Flat and play a 4 handed pot in position with a hand that rates to be the best.

3bet to isolate deep stack opponent, build a decent pot and play HU vs CO knowing that you will be able to identify your opponents hand strength and have an image that allows several streets of thin value.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_c
1/2 live NLHE, 5 handed
HJ folds, CO raises to 10, Hero is button and has AJo.

Significant data:
CO has 650
Hero covers
SB has 200
BB has 250

Hero believes CO is not super strong - rule JJ+, AK out of CO range.
Hero is a 2/5-5/10 reg who has massive postflop edge on all players.
Hero did a particularly crazy move and showed a bluff recently.
Hero has a large PFR atm.
Hero only recently joined the table (3-4 orbits?).
CO has a relatively low PFR - probs 15% - obv with limited stats.
CO has not shown down a hand yet
CO has played most hands passively.
CO will not fold to a 3bet (esp vs Hero)
CO is aware hero is a strong player
AJo is likely ahead of Villain's range...and even if Villain wonders if Hero is full of sh*t, he doesn't seem like the kind of player who is going to get tricky with Hero or put a lot of his chips at risk unless he has a monster (assuming the OP's read is reasonably accurate after only 30-40 hands)

Consequently, I would 3-bet preflop to isolate the CO, and then after the flop use aggression and position to increase the chances that CO makes one or more mistakes that earns us money.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
AJo is likely ahead of Villain's range...and even if Villain wonders if Hero is full of sh*t, he doesn't seem like the kind of player who is going to get tricky with Hero or put a lot of his chips at risk unless he has a monster (assuming the OP's read is reasonably accurate after only 30-40 hands)

Consequently, I would 3-bet preflop to isolate the CO, and then after the flop use aggression and position to increase the chances that CO makes one or more mistakes that earns us money.
I ended up 3betting and flopping a full house (irrelevant imo) with further value extracted.

What range would you advocate 3betting here? Given some hands play better multiway. I don't usually play 1/2 esp. short handed so its hard to know optimal preflop decisions.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_c
I ended up 3betting and flopping a full house (irrelevant imo) with further value extracted.

What range would you advocate 3betting here? Given some hands play better multiway. I don't usually play 1/2 esp. short handed so its hard to know optimal preflop decisions.
To be honest, I'm not a short-handed specialist, and I didn't realize when I first responded that this was a short-handed game. However, I think it's safe to say that the range of hands you should be 3-betting is much more dependent on your opponents' tendencies than on the absolute hand values.

Maybe some short-handed experts can weigh in here.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 05:37 PM
I think this depends alot on where the fish are - fish in the blinds or is CO the fish?

If fish are in the blinds calling is best given that you have position and will often flop dominating hands. I think 3-betting a hand like AJs has more merit given that it can make a nutted hand much easier which is going to be important if you want to stack CO for 300bbs.

Alot of this also depends on how CO plays post flop - he will call ur 3-bet wide fine, but will he play fit or fold afterwards? If that's the case I'd rather take this one multi-way with a fish in the blind and hand select differently to play vs CO.

This is a ridiculous question for a 5/10 REG with a "massive postflop edge".
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 05:50 PM
Def 3 bet. Calling is bad here.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 07:06 PM
Quote:
Hero believes CO is not super strong - rule JJ+, AK out of CO range.
Hero is a 2/5-5/10 reg who has massive postflop edge on all players.
Hero did a particularly crazy move and showed a bluff recently.
Hero has a large PFR atm.
Hero only recently joined the table (3-4 orbits?).
CO has a relatively low PFR - probs 15% - obv with limited stats.
CO has not shown down a hand yet
CO has played most hands passively.
CO will not fold to a 3bet (esp vs Hero)
CO is aware hero is a strong player
I really see nothing anywhere that gives you the information needed to "rule out" JJ+/AK here. What led you to believe this?
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by troloyolo
This is a ridiculous question for a 5/10 REG with a "massive postflop edge".
Give him a break, everyone in this entire forum has a "massive postflop edge" everytime they sit down at the table. I don't think I've ever seen a hand posted where the OP wasn't by far the best player in the game, by his own admission.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 07:31 PM
We have an opponent that is sicky pre and passive the rest of the way, easy 3bet in position. Plus being short handed makes AJo go way up in value.

If he's truly passive, his 4bet range is super strong so we easily fold. I think we crush his flatting range and we can print money off him by 3betting and cbetting a high % of boards.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 09:47 PM
First of all, you can't rule out JJ+ or AK from his range. But even including those hands, AJo is still way ahead of an average player's CO opening range. I'd make it $25 but flatting is fine too.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-29-2012 , 11:39 PM
I dont see how many of the facts given can be possible. Ruling out JJ+ etc. for one. Saying villain will always call the 3 bet. These seem fictitious.

The answer is still the same though and that is to 3 bet and take the initiative.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 12:24 AM
Should we be 3betting bigger here if villain is calling a lot of 3bets? If we 3b the standard 3x we set up a 10:1ish spr. This isn't what we want with AJo is it? Would we want something lower (3b to like 45) or higher (min 3b or flat)?

I also don't understand how you can make those assumptions about V (not JJ+, etc.)
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 12:41 AM
If your strength is post flop then push that edge there and flat
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 01:02 AM
It seems an easy 3bet for value to me
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 01:15 AM
Okay, I'm an Ed Miller SPR guy. 3B here will get u heads up most of the time with a TPTK kind of hand and an SPR of about 10. My understanding is TPTK kinds of hands play awful at this SPR. you want either much lower (say 4 or 5 for a weak opponent) or, when that's not possible, over 20. A flat gets you over 20 (or, at least close), which will allow you to avoid difficult situations post flop and use your masterful post flop skill.

My plan here is to flop TPTK on a J high board or hit an A with two low cards (non broadway) and, either way, play for a small pot (being slightly more aggressive or sticky with TPTK vs just a hit A). If I miss the flop, I'll bet if checked to to get a fold from a fit-or-fold type. If I flop two pair or better, I'll try to build a pot. The situation will evolve on the turn and river, but that's the initial plan. Thoughts?

I have no idea how you rule out JJ+ or AK from a CO raiser and would like to hear your reasoning.

Last edited by Notam; 12-30-2012 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Dumb typos
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 06:45 AM
Thanks for the replies. Regarding common points:

Preflop Hand Range
I ruled out JJ+ AK as I heard from another player say this guy makes it 15 with the above hands. Idk how he knew this. I didn't include this as it is short handed (due to 3 players being absent for 15 odd minutes) and this could change (assuming he made an adjustment). It was also a bet timing thing feeling that lead me to believe he wasn't that strong. My gut feeling said he had some kind of middle card hand that he wanted to win a pot with (wishful thinking?). He has probably been just flop dead for the last couple of orbits. My 3bet size was to 30 as I want players to call me out of position with garbage.
I don't think villain is the type to fold to 3bets based on appearance and typical reactions to hero.

Post flop
I think even the worst player to read this forum would have a 'massive postflop edge' over all villains. They are all tired from a night where drinks were consumed and are not regulars in the room.
I expect all villains to play passively postflop. They are likely to make tired calls and draw when no odds are presented for things such as gutshots. SB I see around once a month but I only played with him once or twice about 1-2 years ago. He seems to follow logic fairly well but doesn't necessarily understand correct flop calling ranges in heads up pots. I doubt either BB or CO knows what a 3bet is. BB and CO are similar in playing style (based on appearance, other players reactions to their presence in pots, the way they have played hands). BB will take a stab in multiway pots with middle pair but will immediately shut down when called. If you check the turn back to him he will call the river. CO is particularly tired but hasn't won a hand for a little while. I don't have much postflop info on him but I would be able to figure out enough based on bet timing and standard tells. I'm sure you can all relate to having a gut feeling that someone has something in particular based on the way they're betting.

My question was more a general 'based on your experience, do you think you win more per hour at 1/2 with AJo by playing multiway pots or heads up pots?'
General assumptions:
You would be winning a large percentage of small pots by 3betting and occasionally playing a bigger one. You also have a faster hand rate with 3betting (insignificant?)
You would be only really winning pots of significant size when you play multiway - usually playing for large portions of stacks.
My clear strategy is to play big pot poker against all V as they call too often and bet too stonger hands in general.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notam
Okay, I'm an Ed Miller SPR guy. 3B here will get u heads up most of the time with a TPTK kind of hand and an SPR of about 10. My understanding is TPTK kinds of hands play awful at this SPR. you want either much lower (say 4 or 5 for a weak opponent) or, when that's not possible, over 20. A flat gets you over 20 (or, at least close), which will allow you to avoid difficult situations post flop and use your masterful post flop skill.

My plan here is to flop TPTK on a J high board or hit an A with two low cards (non broadway) and, either way, play for a small pot (being slightly more aggressive or sticky with TPTK vs just a hit A). If I miss the flop, I'll bet if checked to to get a fold from a fit-or-fold type. If I flop two pair or better, I'll try to build a pot. The situation will evolve on the turn and river, but that's the initial plan. Thoughts?

I have no idea how you rule out JJ+ or AK from a CO raiser and would like to hear your reasoning.
Thanks for your reply.

What background is Ed Miller's work based on? Does it take position into consideration? What about number of runners and are they likely to be fit/fold type players? I am extremely interested in this type of theory and will likely read up on it.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 02:04 PM
the information in the OP is flawed so responses in this thread are as well

3bet would seem to be the default play

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_c
Preflop Hand Range
I ruled out JJ+ AK as I heard from another player say this guy...
^^this should have been included in OP^^
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 02:52 PM
I would 3 bet here, esp if you have FOS image and he's never folding you can 3b for value. Is there any specific reason why you completely rule out JJ+?
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote
12-30-2012 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notam
Okay, I'm an Ed Miller SPR guy. 3B here will get u heads up most of the time with a TPTK kind of hand and an SPR of about 10. My understanding is TPTK kinds of hands play awful at this SPR. you want either much lower (say 4 or 5 for a weak opponent) or, when that's not possible, over 20. A flat gets you over 20 (or, at least close), which will allow you to avoid difficult situations post flop and use your masterful post flop skill.

My plan here is to flop TPTK on a J high board or hit an A with two low cards (non broadway) and, either way, play for a small pot (being slightly more aggressive or sticky with TPTK vs just a hit A). If I miss the flop, I'll bet if checked to to get a fold from a fit-or-fold type. If I flop two pair or better, I'll try to build a pot. The situation will evolve on the turn and river, but that's the initial plan. Thoughts?

I have no idea how you rule out JJ+ or AK from a CO raiser and would like to hear your reasoning.
Although I am also an Ed Miller devotee, I don't believe this is a situation where our actions should be dictated predominantly by SPR, since the read on the opponent (whether accurate or not) is that he is a passive player who likely won't be in a rush to play for stacks. Consequently, I would be much more inclined to 3-bet, since I believe that this affords us the highest EV.

For a more thorough discussion of 3-betting situations, you should check out Miller's latest book, Playing the Player.
Preflop Decision - 3bet or call? Quote

      
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