1/3, $500 max, 9 handed. Friday night, around 11pm. Game started out very loose-passive, with lots of limp-calling, but recently has gotten deep-stacked, and playing more like 2/5.

V1 / UTG1, ~$185 - only at the table for an orbit or two, having come from another table that broke. Seems like a bit of a rec-fish. Saw me drag a few pots, made some complimentary comment, might think I'm a crusher. Playing like he's stuck and just looking for an excuse to jam and double up or go broke and go home.

V2 / CO, ~$1800 - young guy, late 20's-early 30's. Somewhat LAG-ish. Played with him a few times, enough to know he's competent, but also capable of torching a few hundred in a single hand. He's definitely capable of 3B'ing light, but probably not getting too far out of line very often. Been on a rush the last few orbits, so big stacked.

Hero / BB, ~$900 - MAWG, TAG-ish. V1 has only seen me play a few hands, but V2 knows my game well, and likewise knows I'm capable of 3B'ing light and blasting off post-flop, even without the nuts. I'm stuck about $600 on the session, which V1 knows, having seen me lose some big pots when opponents sucked out on the river in ridiculous ways. I might look a little tilted.

There's a meta game with V2 - we're friendly, and mostly stay out of each other's way, but we'll occasionally do shenanigans just to screw with each other...

In a previous session, I open-limped from the BTN, SB folded, and V2 raised from the BB. I told him I'd only give him action if he agreed we'd each get to pick one of our opponent's cards to expose. He agreed, we each picked a card for the other to turn face up, and we played it out, with a lot of trash talk on every street.

Earlier in this session, I open-limed T2s UTG, knowing there'd be 3-4 other limpers, and expecting he'd put in a "punish the limpers" raise from the BTN with almost ATC. Sure enough, he did raise, I put in the back-3B, everyone folded, and I wind-milled my cards face up across the table, "For Doyle!"

OTTH:

V1 limps UTG1. 2 other limps. V2 raises to $25 on BTN. SB folds. Hero in BB 3B to $75 with KK. V1 4B-jams for $185 total, re-opening the betting.

Interesting spot for V2 on BTN. He can flat call and try to see a flop IP, at the risk I'll come back over the top, or he can iso-5B-re-jam for all of it, and maybe create some fold equity.

Doesn't seem to me like there's a 5B size he can take that doesn't commit him to call off the rest if I rip it in, unless he just min-clicks it to $300, which seems pointless if he's just going to fold to a jam.

Like I said, he knows I'm capable of 3B'ing him light from OOP, and now he's got this other guy jamming a short-stack. He can iso-raise with a lot of dead money in the pot, or he can flat-call, but if I over-call, we're going to the flop with just under 1.3 SPR.

Question 1 - what hands do we think V2 should fold, what hands should he 5B, what's his 5B size, and what hands should he just flat call with, if any? Is this just a jam or fold spot for him, or is there a calling range he can have IP? Is that a call-fold range only, or would anyone flat call AA, hoping it looks weak, to induce a jam, or just play IP post-flop?

V2 tanks for about 10 seconds, and does end up re-jamming. I of course snap-call and immediately flip over my hand. Obviously I'm not folding KK here. I assume no one else is, either, but if you are, please let us know, and explain the reasoning.

Question 2 - what's the bottom of your stacking off range in this scenario, in my spot? Are we just going with QQ? JJ? TT? AKo? AQs?

I couldn't watch what happened next. I turn my back to the table. Another reg who left the game earlier, and a dealer going on break have stopped to sweat the hand. They both wince at the flop, and I already know...

Flop is A-rag-rag, rainbow.

V1 happily fast-rolls AJo, knowing he's at least beating me for the smaller main pot. I'm praying to win the larger side pot. V2 hasn't rolled over his hand yet, so there's hope...

I reckon he jams qq plus, and ak because he have the blockers. Then kk AA for you to jam. Don't think I'd bother flatting the allin with any hand. And I don't have any A5s bluff in either seat because of the all in guy. I suppose ak is his blocker bluff. I think then you have no bluffs so it's kk and AA only.

Interested if this is right though.

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This hand reminds me of every time I'm facing significant action while holding QQ, JJ, or AKo. We never love committing our whole stack with those hands.

From V2's perspective, I could easily have a hand that was 3B light in the BB, but now folds to a jam, like AJs, or AQo, TT or 99. And he doesn't necessarily want to flat call and let me see a flop with those hands, if he has QQ, JJ, or AKo, even if he's a favorite, because if I smash the flop, look out.

But if he does jam, I'm definitely NOT calling with AJs, AQo, TT or 99. Probably not even JJ. Maybe not even QQ. My 5B-jam-calling range is going to be dominated by AA, KK, and AKs, so what does he do with QQ, JJ, and AKo here?

Might be one of those questions that's just impossible to answer.

Your 3bet was a little bit small, I would go 110 personally.

I dont think villain should have any flatting range in his position.

He should fold JJ and under in my opinion and jam QQ+ and AK.

As you facing his jam I would only call w aces and kings.

I think this is roughly right, with the exception I might flat AA in his shoes to induce from you. Depends on the dynamics a bit - if he thinks you'll read a flat as very strong then I'd jam AA.

He can't continue with any bluffs, so his range is completely merged if he calls or raises and he can fold a lot even given his big initial raise.
I think if V calls you have to fold all bluffs and are in a bad spot with some of your borderline value 3bets.

Given that I don't see what shoving achieves, and it's going to cost a lot. Yes, AA wants to raise but I doubt QQ or AK should want to pile another $700 in vs. your calling range if V shoves.

Maybe making it 295 is "better" in that there won't be a dry side pot, but SPR feels pretty bad.


So I think I would go the other way and call all of range as V2 (but still fold a lot).

Thanks for the responses, gentlemen. I was hoping to hear other people's opinions about V2 calling (and why) vs raising (and why), because I think this is a tough spot for him to be in, with no clearly correct answer.

I would generally go larger with the 3B when OOP. Not sure why I only went 3X, but I might have figured V2's raising range on the BTN would be pretty wide, and I didn't want to fold out too much of that range.

Or, maybe I just wasn't really thinking it through. Maybe it was just "Yes! Kings!"

What to do in my spot or V2's spot with with QQ or AK is a dilemma I've faced before. I don't love jamming or calling a jam with QQ, and would rather have AKs.

DooDooPoker explained dead card theory in another thread, arguing that AK becomes a slight favorite over QQ when we take into account the range of hands other opponents are folding would have more QX than KX or AX. I guess that supports my preference for AK over QQ.

Here, with the UTG2 jamming, I'd think he's going to have more AX, so maybe AK should be folded more, and QQ becomes more of a call. Though perhaps they're both just pure folds in this spot, against the population, and only a call if we're really confident in our read of V2's jamming range, given the meta game between us.

It just sucks to fold QQ, and especially AKs.

I was thinking about this a lot after the hand. Is it better to flat AA to induce, at the risk of me just flatting behind with TT+, or does he want to just jam AA, expecting me to never fold KK, and maybe sometimes call with QQ?

If I flat call instead of jamming, any flop that comes T-high to K-high might make me top set, and it's going to be hard for him to get away from AA if I jam flop.

If I understand what you're saying - whether he flat calls or raises, he has no bluffs, his continuing range is strong / merged, and I shouldn't continue with any of my BS hands that were light 3B's.

But if V2 flat calls, I'd be getting 4:1 to continue, which is pretty enticing pot odds to call and see a flop with some SC's with good equity against big PP's. It wouldn't seem overly spewy to flat call in hopes of smashing the flop, at least some of the time.

For that reason, I think V2 would be in the blender, wanting to raise for value/protection, and not give me good pot odds to come along with a wider range. But, yeah, if he does shove, he's risking a lot, and he's probably behind my calling range.

It's a tough spot for him, in that I wouldn't love any of his options. I suppose we might split the baby, and flat IP with AA/range, or 5B jam OOP.

Reveal time.



Like I said, tough spot for V2, knowing I could be 3B'ing light. Hard to fault him for jamming with his hand, even knowing he's flipping at best if I call.

Your 3 bet is small, id go at least $100. Im putting all my money in on the flop 100% of the time no matter the action of V2.

For v2, idk what he should do, probably depends on his read on you, but its KK+ AK and probably QQ and maybe JJ. Theres a rule against reverse hh anyway, the reasoning is given in the rules. He should never cold call.

It's not a reverse hh. This is a strat thread, in a strat forum.

I asked two basic questions - what would people do as V, and what's the bottom of our stacking off range in hero's spot.

Asking what we'd do as V is a valid question, as we might find ourselves in his spot, but also because it affects what our response is. Considering what we'd do as V helps us structure a range for him.

Say V flat calls. Should hero jam, or flat call behind? If V is flatting with his entire range, including AA, it changes things. Understanding what we think V should do here informs what we think we should do here.

Feel free to reconsider your response in that light.

Asking what V should do is what a reverse Hh is. your hand history description literally ended in V2 being the next one to act, and as i said, whether his range includes QQ JJ depends on his read on you, which you did your best to provide but realistically cant provide. I think i answered both questions. Did he flat? If he did i guess i didnt answer your question because i thought he should ship or fold. You see how this creates problems? Not trying to hate on you, i mostly like your contributions

We can try to put V on a hand, and thats what i did.

I guess my point was too hypothetical.

He jammed.

But hypothetically, IF he flat called, what would/should we do? Jam, or flat call? What's the bottom of our range here?

It's worth asking what we think V should do with AA and the rest of his range, because it affects what we do with KK and the rest of ours.

If we think he's jamming AA/KK only, we might jam more of our range when he calls. If we think he's flatting with AA down to QQ/AK, and maybe TT-JJ, we need to think more about what we're doing before we assume he's flatting a weaker range, and jam with QQ.

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I would iso wider than people are saying. You have tons of broadways that are folding and you might fold them all. You have 99 and TT and maybe you fold JJ or even QQ.

In his spot I’m jamming JJ+ AK and sometimes get frisky with TT 99 AQ. In your spot I’m calling QQ+ AK.

I don’t think he should flat AA, that’s too obvious.

Without a doubt, I could be 3B'ing light with a lot of hands in the BB, when he opens from the BTN. I would absolutely fold all the Broadway combos worse than AK if he iso-jams, and probably 99-JJ. It's harder to fold QQ there, but I think I could find the fold with QQ, if he 5B jams. I'm just going to hate it if he rolls over JJ.

But the hard part for him is jamming with JJ-QQ, knowing he's going to be behind my calling range, or flatting with AA, to induce me to jam, knowing I might just flat call with a fairly wide range, when I'll be getting 4:1 pot odds on a call.

This is why I posted the thread. What we think he's doing dictates our continuing range and how we play it. As played, when he jams, it's a snap call with KK, but maybe not with QQ/AKo. If he flat calls, it actually puts me in a weird spot, because I need to figure out if I want to jam KK, knowing he can only call with AA, or let him see a flop with JJ-QQ or worse

Got it. I think cold calling with anything here would be a big leak. Really shitty spot for v2.

It is a shitty spot for him. He made it easy for me by jamming. He could have made it a really shitty spot for me by flat calling, though, for the same reasons.

If he calls and I jam, I can only get called by AA, so I'm either a huge dog, or losing value from everything he folds. If he calls and I call behind, we're going to the flop OOP, against an undefined range, with just a hair over 1 SPR. Imagine check-folding KK on an A-high flop, and he rolls over JJ.

I don't know what the right answer is for him, or for me if he just flat calls. V1 re-opening the betting by limp-jamming really complicates things for both of us.

If V1 folded, V2 could just flat call IP with TT-QQ or jam AA, and not be worried about making too big a mistake in either scenario. If V2 jams, I can call with AA/KK and fold everything else, and not be worried I'm making too big a mistake.

I dont agree with any of this. Lets remember V2 has raised btn which should be like a 35% range. (Granted…. Maybe not when he goes 8x), and got 3 bet by a player who has shown T2 before. V1 has basically fulfilled his requirement of MDF and he can safely just fold most of his range and thats fine. V1 absolutely could have AA (not likely, but he could)

If he tries to build a calling range, you can aggressively try to fold him out with hands like 99 TT or AJ AQ, and the sizing sucks for him, its be ~700 HU vs the stronger hand to get into a ~$600 3 way pot which is super marginal with even good hands.

And you said if v1 folded he can flat TT-QQ and jam AA KK, he has to flat way way wider than that for mdf to your 3 bet (which actually matters in a spot like this thats a standard preflop spot and is vs a reg)

I just dont think he ever flats, and i dont think he ever should. Anyway did he have AA?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...25&postcount=8

Maybe I'm allowing V1's jam to cloud my vision in this scenario.

I think V1's jam that re-opens the betting makes this spot more complicated for both V2, and for me if V2 just flat calls. The reason is that if either of us raises, we're creating a side pot, and the SPR gets really shallow, really quick.

So, let's say V2 has AA, raises, and I fold. He's losing value from a ton of hands I could have that would over-call, getting 4:1. If he raises with JJ, he's behind my continuing range. If he flats AA, I'm over-calling with a ton of hands that can out-flop him. If he flats JJ, I'm either over-calling with a lot of hands that can out-flop him, or jamming behind and putting him in the blender.

Likewise, if he just flat calls, I can't necessarily blast off with 99-TT or weaker AX holdings. Let's say I jam for $715 more. He'll be getting a little over 1.77 to one. He can flat call with some big PP's and better AX to induce me to raise when he'll have way the best of it, but also call my jam with some hands that are going to be good at least 36% of the time, if I'm jamming as wide as 99 and AJ.

Like I said, I don't know what V2 should do. Making a tight fold with JJ doesn't seem too wrong, but somehow flat calling or jamming with AA both seem wrong.

In a scenario where V1 folds, I didn't mean V2's calling range was limited to TT-QQ or his jamming range limited to AA/KK. I was just using those hands as examples of what he could flat call or jam with, and not worry he's making a mistake. I wasn't suggesting he fold everything else. Of course he can and should call wider when we're $900 effective, there's over $100 in the pot, and he only has to call $50 to see the flop.

I think youre overthinking this in terms of V2 losing value from your weaker hands when he jams rather than calls. There is such thing as equity protection. I dont see how flatting with AA would ever be reasonable for him to give you massive implied odds when you are this deep. He should just always jam aces and kings and try to cooler you or go heads up vs mr shortstack. How much value is he really going to lose jamming vs letting you tag along? Its not like youre going to stack off light postflop.

I think his jam here is pretty bad personally. Even if he thinks you can 3bet light he's way too deep for this. It sucks for him because he is ahead of the other guys range, but whenever you call his jam he's crushed plus he still has to beat the other guy when you fold.

Jamming AA/KK puts a limit on how much he can win when I fold, and V1 can still suck out. He should want to get stacks in with me, if he's trying to maximize value.

He could min-click it to around $300, deny equity from a lot of my range, and put the rest of my range in the blender. For that price, I'm going to have to call off with AK and QQ. If he makes it $300, there will be $785 in the pot, and we'll have $600 behind, so he can get the rest on a clean flop.

Jamming with JJ seems pretty bad if I call, but I can only call with AA/KK for that price, so he's generating enough fold equity to get rid of QQ and some AX combos, maybe including AK.

I'm not saying jamming AA/KK is wrong and jamming QQ/JJ is right, but at this stack depth, I think jamming JJ for max fold equity seems more reasonable than jamming AA and hoping I have KK.