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[Poo-Bah Post] Protecting Yourself in a Vice Industry.
08-09-2008
, 02:33 AM
Poo Bah Post
Protecting yourself in a vice industry.
I'd like to preface this post by stating a few things. I realize this will likely be very controversial, and people will be at contention with many of the topics that I raise. This is fine. I accept that I am very much so under-qualified to even discuss some of these topics. I've come a long way but am still very much so a rookie in the world of the proffessional gambler. I have hardly been around the block.
However, I have been made my way around this particular block far more than the people for whom I write this. It has now been about 2.5 years that I have made poker a full time endeavour. It's been about 6 years that I've been more or less active in the gambling community, both locally (live) and internationally (online/tournament circuit). I don't claim to have seen it all, or even to have understood it all, but I write this from the position of someone who feels they have seen the many facets of the gambling community, and write this to implore you to keep an open mind and focus on protecting yourself when embarking on your own journey into the gambling community, whether your intentions are to remain a tourist, a visitor, or to make a home here.
1] Protect your neck.
Poker is a social game. Or well, it used to be. In typical fashion, it is played in person at a table with associates and strangers alike. The general atmosphere in a typical game is one of camaraderie and freindliness.
That being said, nobody at the table is your friend. Everyone at the table has a similar goal, to gain your money. Many people will do this with honour. Many people will not.
There are certain people who will behave in a manner as to give the impression that they seek to help you. Few of these are genuine. If you've played more than a few thousand hands of poker, it is very likely someone has attempted to cheat you. This can take various forms, some of which I will detail.
If you are a "stranger" to a game, beware of people who seem to know each other at the tables. Regulars in games are likely to get preferential treatment from the floor, and some will take it to the extent that they will angle shoot you. Protect your cards.
I recall a specific example where a regular player in a live tournament at a casino was involved in a hand with a tourist. The pot was large and it appeared the the regular was getting ready to move all in. He had been raised, and had reacted to the raise by stacking his chips as though he were ready to go all in. He began to move this stack forward ever so slightly when the tourist assumed it to mean an intent to move all in and flipped his hand and threw his remaining chips in.
The regular then mucked his hand and said he had not announced verbally his all-in and his bet was not binding (presumably upon seeing the tourists' cards and recognizing he was was beaten). The floorman, who happened to be on friendly terms with this regular was called and sided rather quickly that since his chips had not crossed the bet line and he had not signaled verbal intent, that a bet had not been made. The tourist was awarded the pot pre-all in.
There is no doubt in my mind this particular regular indeed took an angle shot and used his reputation as a regular to procure a controversial call from the floor. The tourist should not have exposed his hand so quickly and should have assured the action was an all-in bet before hand, but at the same time you can not give him full blame for thinking the player was all in. Others at the table clearly remarked they felt the regular had signaled all-in intent, but again, his regularity at the casino seemed to award him some "seniority" in the decision.
This is just a small example, but hopefully provides a serious point in your poker play. People will use every edge to abuse you if they can, protect yourself. Protect your play.
2] Business Dealings
You will undoubtedly encounter people both online and live directly through gambling and develop a repoir with them. You may come to trust these people. As the saying goes, "Trust every man, but always cut the deck."
If you haven't known someone since birth, or done multiple favorable transactions/loans with someone, employ layers of security.
This seems like common sense, but if you've read the forums for as long as a month you will see that this goes under-utilized frequently. Allow me to elaborate a few specific incidents where people have been duped.
A common scheme I am near certain I have seen employed and utilized even on 2p2 is this:
A player develops a repoir on 2p2 through posting and playing regularly in certain games. He posts screenshots on occasion that show him to be a winning player. After several months/thousand posts this player hits a "horrible downswing" and needs to cash out for "emergency expenses" or the like.
He puts out a request for backing/staking and given his screenshots/online repoir is lucky enough to acquire a 10k stake from another player.
This person then proceeds to cash out the 10k stake, forge hand histories, and claims to continue "running horrible" until the staker cuts them off.
Rinse and repeat for as long as possible.
This might sound unrealistic to some, but if you think about it logically, with all the clever people on the internet, this scam is rather elementary. It should not be hard to believe that someone would go to some length developing repoir in order to set up elaboarte scams such as this that have longevity in the sense that it allows them to pull this off multiple times.
My personal advice is to be your own man. Handle your own funds and require others in your life to do the same. It's too easy to get ripped off on the internet especially, and you're wild if you think this can't happen with people you know in person as well. When it comes to money, people will do ANYTHING. It is not hard to fake HH's or screenshots, and it is not hard to gain someones trust.
This type of scam can take alternate routes, such as offering "coaching" that comes sub-par and charges rather high rates for minimal substance. There have been documented cases of this on 2p2, do your research.
This leads me to point 3:
3] Be your own man/woman.
Do not get yourself involved in other peoples' financial business. It does not matter who the person is, concerning yourself with others finances puts you in situations you'd rather avoid. Allow me to elaborate a real-life example from my home game.
Chris and Joe are players in a regular 1/2 home game. The home game runs frequently with a larger player pool of 15-20 players. The players all know each other somewhat well and the game runs with differing lineups often. Chris is a poor player who loses at a fairly steady rate, but isn't such a horrible donk that he loses constantly. Joe is a solid player who generally books wins and is one of the better players in the game. It is not uncommon for Chris to bust his buyin and take a loan from a player such as Joe.
Earlier in the week Chris receives a $200 loan from Joe. Later that week I play in a game with Chris where he runs well and books a $800 win. Later that night we go out to a local bar and run into Joe. Joe asks Chris about the $200 he owes him and Chris tells Joe that he doesn't have the money but will repay him at next weeks' pay check.
Later when Chris is not present, Joe asks me if Chris played in the game that night, and how he did. What is my answer?
Well, I don't like to lie to people. So my answer is that "I'm not really sure, you'll have to ask Chris." This should be your answer as well. It is also worth noting that you should never lend Chris money under any circumstances, not that you would have anyways.
Do not become the bridge between two other players problems. It is not your concern. Your concern is to play good poker and be honest in your dealings with sometimes dishonest people. Protect yourself, and be your own man/woman.
I can assure you every poker player has encountered this situation in their time, and most would inform Joe that Chris did indeed win $800 and had lied. Joe needs to come to these conclusions on his own. It is not your problem.
This may seem harsh or cold when dealing with friends, but again, I can not stress enough that it is imperative that others debt not become an issue of yours.
You never want to burn bridges at the table.
4] People lie, a lot.
Never accept someones word or even screenshots for face value. People will lie about their results. People will take credit for tournament scores of people they backed. People will lie about cash game results. People will "forget" losses in games they don't consider their main game. The only thing that talks is the score, the money, and this is generally concealed. Again I stress to handle only your own money and attempt as best as possible to only concern yourself with your money.
If you split a hotel room with someone, and request payment for it, and they continue to "forget" or act as though paying you isn't a priority while they sit in live games or play big buy-in tournaments, it's generally best to disassociate (politely) with this person. I'm sure you have all encountered this outside of the poker world. You lend a friend $20 and see him the next weekend buying drinks at the bar. He does not procure the $ owed until you make a point of reminding him and prodding for it.
Do not believe for a second that this person actually "forgot" about the debt. Does this happen on occasion? Of course. However, anyone who does not make a debt repayment a priority at any one time is a liability forever. It is not a secret that some people will attempt to be negligent in paying small debts hoping that you "forget." It is imperative that when you recognize this behaviour from someone that you cease all dealings with them of a financial nature outside of the poker table from that point on.
5] See the big picture.
Analyze the things people say and the ways they behave. Do not take everything at face value. Consider in your head alterior motivations people may have for the way they act. Be paranoid. Poker is not a team sport. It is ok to have reservations about someones character, even for extended periods of time. If you see two players who seem extremely friendly at the table and make questionable plays whilst seemingly avoiding showdowns with one another, make a mental note.
Nobody in poker is your friend. You will undoubtedly make friends from poker, but this should take years upon years to develop into a full, trusting friendship. The poker community is exciting and brimming with youth at the moment, do not get overwhelmed. You started poker in your own best interest, and you want to remain in poker for that reason.
I know this article appears entirely pessimistic at face value, but these are important issues that those new to the game and those who are experienced need to always take the time to re-evaluate. In playing poker you signed into a world of vice. You will run across all sorts of characters, some honorabe, some dodgy. You need to maintain focus on evaluating these people and making sure you protect your best interest.
Protect yourself.
Protecting yourself in a vice industry.
I'd like to preface this post by stating a few things. I realize this will likely be very controversial, and people will be at contention with many of the topics that I raise. This is fine. I accept that I am very much so under-qualified to even discuss some of these topics. I've come a long way but am still very much so a rookie in the world of the proffessional gambler. I have hardly been around the block.
However, I have been made my way around this particular block far more than the people for whom I write this. It has now been about 2.5 years that I have made poker a full time endeavour. It's been about 6 years that I've been more or less active in the gambling community, both locally (live) and internationally (online/tournament circuit). I don't claim to have seen it all, or even to have understood it all, but I write this from the position of someone who feels they have seen the many facets of the gambling community, and write this to implore you to keep an open mind and focus on protecting yourself when embarking on your own journey into the gambling community, whether your intentions are to remain a tourist, a visitor, or to make a home here.
1] Protect your neck.
Poker is a social game. Or well, it used to be. In typical fashion, it is played in person at a table with associates and strangers alike. The general atmosphere in a typical game is one of camaraderie and freindliness.
That being said, nobody at the table is your friend. Everyone at the table has a similar goal, to gain your money. Many people will do this with honour. Many people will not.
There are certain people who will behave in a manner as to give the impression that they seek to help you. Few of these are genuine. If you've played more than a few thousand hands of poker, it is very likely someone has attempted to cheat you. This can take various forms, some of which I will detail.
If you are a "stranger" to a game, beware of people who seem to know each other at the tables. Regulars in games are likely to get preferential treatment from the floor, and some will take it to the extent that they will angle shoot you. Protect your cards.
I recall a specific example where a regular player in a live tournament at a casino was involved in a hand with a tourist. The pot was large and it appeared the the regular was getting ready to move all in. He had been raised, and had reacted to the raise by stacking his chips as though he were ready to go all in. He began to move this stack forward ever so slightly when the tourist assumed it to mean an intent to move all in and flipped his hand and threw his remaining chips in.
The regular then mucked his hand and said he had not announced verbally his all-in and his bet was not binding (presumably upon seeing the tourists' cards and recognizing he was was beaten). The floorman, who happened to be on friendly terms with this regular was called and sided rather quickly that since his chips had not crossed the bet line and he had not signaled verbal intent, that a bet had not been made. The tourist was awarded the pot pre-all in.
There is no doubt in my mind this particular regular indeed took an angle shot and used his reputation as a regular to procure a controversial call from the floor. The tourist should not have exposed his hand so quickly and should have assured the action was an all-in bet before hand, but at the same time you can not give him full blame for thinking the player was all in. Others at the table clearly remarked they felt the regular had signaled all-in intent, but again, his regularity at the casino seemed to award him some "seniority" in the decision.
This is just a small example, but hopefully provides a serious point in your poker play. People will use every edge to abuse you if they can, protect yourself. Protect your play.
2] Business Dealings
You will undoubtedly encounter people both online and live directly through gambling and develop a repoir with them. You may come to trust these people. As the saying goes, "Trust every man, but always cut the deck."
If you haven't known someone since birth, or done multiple favorable transactions/loans with someone, employ layers of security.
This seems like common sense, but if you've read the forums for as long as a month you will see that this goes under-utilized frequently. Allow me to elaborate a few specific incidents where people have been duped.
A common scheme I am near certain I have seen employed and utilized even on 2p2 is this:
A player develops a repoir on 2p2 through posting and playing regularly in certain games. He posts screenshots on occasion that show him to be a winning player. After several months/thousand posts this player hits a "horrible downswing" and needs to cash out for "emergency expenses" or the like.
He puts out a request for backing/staking and given his screenshots/online repoir is lucky enough to acquire a 10k stake from another player.
This person then proceeds to cash out the 10k stake, forge hand histories, and claims to continue "running horrible" until the staker cuts them off.
Rinse and repeat for as long as possible.
This might sound unrealistic to some, but if you think about it logically, with all the clever people on the internet, this scam is rather elementary. It should not be hard to believe that someone would go to some length developing repoir in order to set up elaboarte scams such as this that have longevity in the sense that it allows them to pull this off multiple times.
My personal advice is to be your own man. Handle your own funds and require others in your life to do the same. It's too easy to get ripped off on the internet especially, and you're wild if you think this can't happen with people you know in person as well. When it comes to money, people will do ANYTHING. It is not hard to fake HH's or screenshots, and it is not hard to gain someones trust.
This type of scam can take alternate routes, such as offering "coaching" that comes sub-par and charges rather high rates for minimal substance. There have been documented cases of this on 2p2, do your research.
This leads me to point 3:
3] Be your own man/woman.
Do not get yourself involved in other peoples' financial business. It does not matter who the person is, concerning yourself with others finances puts you in situations you'd rather avoid. Allow me to elaborate a real-life example from my home game.
Chris and Joe are players in a regular 1/2 home game. The home game runs frequently with a larger player pool of 15-20 players. The players all know each other somewhat well and the game runs with differing lineups often. Chris is a poor player who loses at a fairly steady rate, but isn't such a horrible donk that he loses constantly. Joe is a solid player who generally books wins and is one of the better players in the game. It is not uncommon for Chris to bust his buyin and take a loan from a player such as Joe.
Earlier in the week Chris receives a $200 loan from Joe. Later that week I play in a game with Chris where he runs well and books a $800 win. Later that night we go out to a local bar and run into Joe. Joe asks Chris about the $200 he owes him and Chris tells Joe that he doesn't have the money but will repay him at next weeks' pay check.
Later when Chris is not present, Joe asks me if Chris played in the game that night, and how he did. What is my answer?
Well, I don't like to lie to people. So my answer is that "I'm not really sure, you'll have to ask Chris." This should be your answer as well. It is also worth noting that you should never lend Chris money under any circumstances, not that you would have anyways.
Do not become the bridge between two other players problems. It is not your concern. Your concern is to play good poker and be honest in your dealings with sometimes dishonest people. Protect yourself, and be your own man/woman.
I can assure you every poker player has encountered this situation in their time, and most would inform Joe that Chris did indeed win $800 and had lied. Joe needs to come to these conclusions on his own. It is not your problem.
This may seem harsh or cold when dealing with friends, but again, I can not stress enough that it is imperative that others debt not become an issue of yours.
You never want to burn bridges at the table.
4] People lie, a lot.
Never accept someones word or even screenshots for face value. People will lie about their results. People will take credit for tournament scores of people they backed. People will lie about cash game results. People will "forget" losses in games they don't consider their main game. The only thing that talks is the score, the money, and this is generally concealed. Again I stress to handle only your own money and attempt as best as possible to only concern yourself with your money.
If you split a hotel room with someone, and request payment for it, and they continue to "forget" or act as though paying you isn't a priority while they sit in live games or play big buy-in tournaments, it's generally best to disassociate (politely) with this person. I'm sure you have all encountered this outside of the poker world. You lend a friend $20 and see him the next weekend buying drinks at the bar. He does not procure the $ owed until you make a point of reminding him and prodding for it.
Do not believe for a second that this person actually "forgot" about the debt. Does this happen on occasion? Of course. However, anyone who does not make a debt repayment a priority at any one time is a liability forever. It is not a secret that some people will attempt to be negligent in paying small debts hoping that you "forget." It is imperative that when you recognize this behaviour from someone that you cease all dealings with them of a financial nature outside of the poker table from that point on.
5] See the big picture.
Analyze the things people say and the ways they behave. Do not take everything at face value. Consider in your head alterior motivations people may have for the way they act. Be paranoid. Poker is not a team sport. It is ok to have reservations about someones character, even for extended periods of time. If you see two players who seem extremely friendly at the table and make questionable plays whilst seemingly avoiding showdowns with one another, make a mental note.
Nobody in poker is your friend. You will undoubtedly make friends from poker, but this should take years upon years to develop into a full, trusting friendship. The poker community is exciting and brimming with youth at the moment, do not get overwhelmed. You started poker in your own best interest, and you want to remain in poker for that reason.
I know this article appears entirely pessimistic at face value, but these are important issues that those new to the game and those who are experienced need to always take the time to re-evaluate. In playing poker you signed into a world of vice. You will run across all sorts of characters, some honorabe, some dodgy. You need to maintain focus on evaluating these people and making sure you protect your best interest.
Protect yourself.
![[Poo-Bah Post] Protecting Yourself in a Vice Industry.](https://d30akgybcov179.cloudfront.net/icons/quote.svg){kind=icon}
08-09-2008
, 04:44 AM
08-09-2008
, 05:45 AM
Last edited by Bluegrassplayer; 08-09-2008 at 05:55 AM.
Reason: tl;dr btw it's spelled Pooh-bah you fking moran
08-09-2008
, 06:01 AM
08-09-2008
, 11:44 AM
08-09-2008
, 01:30 PM
08-09-2008
, 01:51 PM
