Live 5-10

Villain is a degen maniac fish. He's friends with all the best players in the casino, but there is NO WAY he is a pro himself. If I had to guess, he's a trust fund baby. He spews relentlessly and never sits a penny below the max buyin. He and I have played a good amount of hours together and I think he respects my game as much as anyone's (though I'm not sure he respects anyone's game all that much because he never folds pre if he has position). He's only been at the table an hour or so and is up to his usual spew. He got it in with 43 on A55 and lost to pfr's AK in a 5-way pre-flop bloater. Then he iso'd the same guy who had AK and called a c/r on the QQ5 flop. Turn was the 4 and he proceeded to ship in his stack after AK guy checked to him. AK guy folded and villain showed J6, just to show everyone how spewy he really is (like we all didn't already know ).

Hero is normally viewed as capable of everything LAG, but villain only knows me as a good TAG- no need to push if the donkey's pulling, amirite? I 3-bet villain a decent amount in general because he opens so wide. Like clockwork, he pretty much always calls in position and pretty much always folds or 4-bets oop- come to think of it, for a fish (and this guy's a borderline whale!), he really seems enamored with position for some reason...

The BB is also semi-relevant in this hand. He's a TAG pro who's been running fairly cold lately.

Stacks:

Hero- 2k
BB- 400
Villain- cover

Pre- (15) Folds around to villain on the button who opens for 30, with literally a range of atc. I look down at two red Eiffel Towers and make is 125 in the SB. BB flats (with God knows what) and villain tank/calls- seemed like he wanted to reraise...

Flop- (369) 762. Hero checks, BB checks, villain bets 280. Hero???

Is the maniac so crazy that he won't take into account the BB's shortstack protecting the pot? He must realize that BB has a good/showdown bound hand often right?

you should have bet 130 OTF. if the short-stack has any clue his pre-flop range should be something like 77-KK and maybe AJ+. i just can't see how he can really cold call a 3bet without a 'real hand' and there must be lots of pairs in his range. also given 125 3bet pre the shortie should have like 275 left.

this way, you bet 130, get shortie to shove for his 275. fish calls or whatever and you get to reopen the action..

as played i think you can just call.

From your description of villain I don't see you being able to get to the river without getting your stack in. Given the board offers a host of draws and against someone tighter, i'd think it likely you were not very far ahead if at all and could lay it down. With this villain, i think the only reason to fold would be because you know you'll have much better opportunities to double through him later that why should you risk it here.

So, i raise to approx 900 with the idea of calling any ship or shoving any turn.

Why did you not lead the flop? Were you hoping you could get to a cheap showdown?

Also, assuming he was considering 4betting pre, what range would his range be in position?

did you check flop because you thought BB would shove most of the time?

check raise is kind of sexy here since villain will put you on draws a bunch and never fold any one pair hands

at first i thought leading flop for 180 was better with the shortie in the middle, but thinking it over i really like checking, so many good things happen when you do, and when you lead it is very difficult to not telegraph your intention with your "slightly less than half of the short stack" sizing

didn't say how much villain bluff / semi-bluff raises postflop? think i'm betting the flop here like always, and not some inducing bet so i can raise big over bb ship. i'm going to play this hand pretty sf for value without bloating the pot too much, depending on how tricky i think btn is going to be for the rest of the hand.

I don't know, I just don't see the BB being that relevant here. He has less than a pot sized bet left in his stack. While we certainly want to win that, I'm assuming the real concern here is how to play this hand against a total maniac who could be betting/raising with ATC

Bet the flop was my first instinct as well. As played you should raise even though villain is an aggro spew and is likely to fire again on later streets. There are a lot of turns cards I don't like. Pretty much just figure out how to get the most amount of money in the quickest, no?

I can go either way with a bet or check on this flop although I am likely leading looking to induce a b/3b line to get it all in. Seems like the best way to get most out of fish is to lead (push a little?) and let him make the pot committing mistake.

BB might even ship over the top with his likely 99+ which is maybe why you checked since you don't care about his money.

As played, I might flat here since we have the A and hope for BB to shove, fish to reshove so we can get it all in one fell swoop.

I assume you are fine stacking off AA on this board vs shorty and this fish, yes?

BB is a tag "pro" flatting 1/4 his stack pre? wtf is he doing lol. anyways I don't think the tanking pre changes his range at all - Im sure his 4b range vs his flatting of your 3b is gonna be pretty similar. I like c/cing the flop cause it looks like you have a mid pair your trying to pot control, and his range is so wide that he'll have way more bluffs/pairs that he'll valuetown himself with, then hands he can call you down. I mean if this guy truly is an absolute crazed maniac and will call the flop with JTs or something absurd to take it OTT, then I guess betting might be better but I'd lean towards c/cing. I definitely think c/r is the worst option

i like the check otf cuz the BB will ship any overpair -- he almost has to have 99/TT/JJ here right? -- thinking hero has AK/AQish type hand and believing he is way ahead of the maniac. maybe the bb is still trapping otf.....

otf after hero's check, i like a stop and go: call the $280 otf, then lead into maniac ott with about $580 and get it in if possible. many times confusing plays like the stop and go cause rich people with egos to make mistakes by trying to re-take the initiative.

I just don't think the BB is relevant here. If you are right and BB has 99-JJ, is he really folding to Hero's c-bet?

As for the stop and go, i sort of assumed villain is going to comply with getting the money in on this hand and if that's true are we better getting it in now or on the turn and i figured now was better if possible. But, if we need to induce villain, why not call the flop and c/r the turn?

He's a smart guy. Very witty and perceptive. He just plays way too many hands and bluffs too much/tries to win every pot. If I had to guess, he would assume that BB's check along with that stack means he actually has AK and not an overpair. He could be betting thinking the pot looks protected but really isn't. Maybe he thinks BB's apparent pot commitment makes his bet of 280 look stronger. IDK, the guy loves to level, and I don't like to try to figure out what's going on his spewy brain. It could all be random for all I know...

I'm pretty sure this fish would pick up on this. If I lead, I 100% have an overpair and he gets to play perfectly. I like this play against an idiot though...

as long as you don't fold now i don't think it matters too much what you do

Yeah, I thought for sure BB would ship flop and villain would be in a bad spot. Now that I think about it more, doesn't AK suited make the most sense for BB's preflop flat?

Ok, given that he's smart but a degen I think the best way to play is just bet 300 on the flop. Sometimes you just have to define your hand (and with the shorty in any flop bet screams overpair) and then roll with the punches. I won't get into a "should you call or fold if he shoves" discussion since that is read dependent. What I want to discuss is the merits of betting vs. checking the flop in this spot. Essentially, defining your hand vs. underrepping and keeping your options open.
I know you dislike playing leveling/guessing games (we all do) and I think that checking this flop will put you into more of a leveling spot than leading will. Throw in the chance you are giving him a free card and that you are "only 200bb" deep against a maniac and this could turn into an unnecessary disaster. Checking makes more sense to me if you are deeper, but even then it often defines your hand almost as much as leading when you call. It's not like villain expects you to c/c with AK, so really you are trapping an extra bluff on the flop but still defining your hand as an overpair quite often.

Side note: villain sounds like the perfect guy to 3bet huge against with QQ+ and these stack sizes. He rarely folds ip right? Make it 275 to go pre and the hand plays itself.

He loves being tricky... How do I lead and not bloat the pot? If I lead, I'm never folding, right? 200 bbs is fine to get in here against this guy no matter what he does or what comes? If I give this guy one thing, it's that he's incredibly balanced- every decision is a close one against him because he can have atc pre and will apply max pressure with draws that have a lot of equity against overpairs, as well as with hands that have me crushed, and also with straight air if he thinks I'm not ready to stack off.

I guess this is part A of my question. Do I just look down at my hand pre and say, "I don't care what comes, I'm never folding this hand against this guy? If he beats it, that's just a cold-deck." Is this proper thinking 200 bbs deep?

Part B is how do I get the money in the quickest? He's no calling station and he can read hands well. Is it better to give him rope and let him hang himself, thinking he can push me off one pair this deep? Or is protecting my hand a bigger priority? If I check/ship, does that make my hand look like nfd (I have the A) and maybe he hero calls? IDK...

Yeah, I'm fine with it. Just wondering if that's the consensus or if 200 bbs is too deep to auto-stack off with one pair. I'm probably not going to get a great read on this guy, and if I do, it might just all be a level anyways. He's def not beyond reverse tells, etc. I think he plays for fun and loves to **** with the grinders or something...

If 200 bbs is too deep, what is the correct approach (starting with pre) against someone like this?

Good post. So check/call until all the money is in the middle?

I think, on this flop, against this villain, you should be happy to stack off (since you make it sound like he will get it in with worse). If he has a set or 76 nice hand to him.

He's def rich with no shortage of ego... Your line is pretty sick. It would be especially effective against someone who only usually fires one street and gives up, right? It kind of re-opens the door for him to bluff just when he thinks it's been closed because you look like you're just checking to call. Interesting...

Also interesting... I don't think he will give me wide action if I make it 275. He wants to try to outplay me, and he knows the stacks have to be deep. Having said that, and at the risk of being flamed to death, is there any merit in flatting pre this deep (he rarely 4-bets in position) and just check-calling every street/betting if he checks back flop or turn?