So you expect your opponents to know you have big hand AND try to bluff raise you off of it? It's hard to see that being the case in this particular game.

No, I don't think they are thinking that way. I think they're thinking, I have a big hand with good equity against his overpair.

I'm just saying, though, that they should know he's never, ever betting air here. He has something. Hell, maybe he has KQ. Maybe he flopped a set. But he's repping a hand by betting, not repping AK or AQ.

bet/folding seems terrible. You can and will be raised by so many hands, many of them worse. At the minimum your getting called in multiple spots leading to impossible turn decisions.

I feel like checking is the only option. This hand gets much easier to play acting last and seeing what all 6 villains do first. This flop never checks through so that's not a worry at all. Depending on the action I can see all of the actions being plausible, raise, fold, or call. Stack sizes and player description would be needed along w/ sizing, position of the bettor, etc etc before we could make any decisions.

FWIW I can certainly see check/raising w/ our $600 stack as being the best option here in more than one possible scenario.

But yeah, I absolutely hate leading out into the field.

I'm probably B/F $100 here.
I also don't mind C/C and eval

another way to look at this hand is that if I were a villain in position I would be raising my entire continuing range on this board. Knowing that, I could never justify bet/folding.

I'm wondering if those of you in the bet fold camp would be flatting the flop w/ your combo's, oesd's, and top pairs?

I can't fathom flatting anything in a 6 handed pot here. It's raise or fold like always, no?

Yes, and if someone bets and we raise, what is their calling range? Anyways, using your range as a calling range....

Nice bluff:

Board: Jc Th 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.751% 39.15% 00.60% 49610 762.50 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 60.249% 59.65% 00.60% 75585 762.50 { JJ-88, AJs, KJs, QJs, Q9s, J8s+, T8s+, 97s, AJo, KJo, QJo, Q9o, J8o+, T8o+, 97o }

Well said. I would do the same.

This situation is so unrealistic. Do I need to play more NLHE hands?

Um what? What in the world makes you think that you would get folds from 88 and TT, but calls from AJ by limp/rr'ing 2x the pot? The entire bolded part seems to be results oriented to me. Getting dealt KK in any spot should be a winning position (in the long-run) as far as I'm concerned.

Well, hopefully, all of them fold and you take the pot right there without seeing a flop.

If I have an 88 or 1010 hand, I would fold against most opponents as I figure I am either up against AK or an overpair. Pretty much same deal for AJ, but sometimes AJ convinces themselves that only pocket pairs do this move and if you had a premium pocket pair, you wouldn't have limped, so they hope they have two overs. If no one folds, you end up with an even huger pot and you likely have the best hand pre-flop. The only way it makes sense not to limp is if you think the table is too passive to raise.

You only have two options IMO. You either bump to $125-$200 range or you fold.

I am betting $125~$140 here and then evaluating who/what happens. It is not a bet/fold automatically.

(oops... thought I was replying on page 1.. I was commenting on flop first to act action)

I've seen tons of players in these games bet/call off their stack with AQ here. This spot is so opponent/stack size dependent, but c/r KK for value is sometimes a good approach.

Adding AQ or KQ to the range won't make it > 50% needed for a value bet.

I think I go with a Cbet of around 100-110. This board is ugly as hell and I think we are pretty happy to take it down here if we can even if that means folding out worse hands. I would Cbet with the intention of checking the turn with the assumption that he would most likely only raise my flop Cbet with a better hand usually or one with a lot of equity and if he bets the turn after I check he would usually only do it with a better hand also. Tons of turn cards help his assumed range also if he calls the flop bet. I think a Cbet helps us play close to perfect given that I think we only get raised with better in most cases because not many people are going to bluff this board. As far as "not getting called by worse" we could, it's thin and the turn could suck. And if someone has a hand like pockets 6s or 4s who will fold here 98% of the time but who will not bluff at the pot at this point unless he spikes another 6 or w/e, then we should just bet and make him fold now because he's not going to put any more money in unless he is ahead and we're giving him free odss to a potentially winning hand.

if you're afraid to see a flop, just open shove preflop. You'll win the pot almost all the time, but won't win any money.

KK sucks from up front just like every other hand sucks from up front. We made a 5x raise and got 6 callers, and chances are very good that someone outflopped us. Being able to recognize that a good situation just went bad and putting the brakes on is a necessary skill in beating this game - this is one of those times.

I like Venice's advice the best - if they're willing to call 5x, try 7x next time.

from what i saw at this room the one time i was there (2-5 i played 2) i would have def limped kk utg.

raises were usually around 50 bucks and got 3 to 4 callers.

as played b/f

guys wanting to c/f to 1 bet are being way too nitty.