Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
pocket aces - stupid nice run out pocket aces - stupid nice run out

06-12-2023 , 09:41 PM
10/10/20 game sitting about 3.5k effective
UTG has been running hot and is a rec player, playing way too many hands and calling too many draws but has been getting there and has built up a massive (12k?) stack
UTG raises to 60 and button calls
Hero (also a rec) in straddle with AA raises to 260 hoping to get called and making it easy to 4b
UTG flats, button folds
Flop (600) Qc9d3s
Hero bets 240, UTG calls
Turn (1080) Qc9d3s 2h - rainbow board
Hero bets 700, UTG calls
River (2480) Qc9d3s2h 2c
Hero checks, villain shoves for 2.3k

Kind of an obvious slow play of call, call, call and then boom shove on river by a rec type but do you ever fold here with this run out? In the few hours we played he always had the goods, so probably could make a case for folding?

I'm an OK rec and looking for ways to improve my thought process. My guess is that the textbook play here is to snap call but do the live dynamics here make enough of a difference? On the flip side, sometimes recs that wouldn't normally bluff start doing so after building up a nice stack and feel comfortable giving some back. JT being a candidate here. Or is he betting Q9 for value?

Spoiler:
Hero calls, villain shows QQ
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-12-2023 , 09:56 PM
Did not look at spoiler. Given how dry this flop and runout are, I think I'm going smaller each street. I'm pretty sure theory supports this.
As played, there's 6 combos of QQ/99. Not sure V is opening 33 UTG and not 4 betting QQ. There's quite a few more Q9/JT/AQ/KQ.

Does V play Q9/JT/AQ/KQ at enough frequency this way? You need to make that decision.
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-12-2023 , 10:32 PM
Seems like an easy shove by the river, not sure why you checked

Anyways call now
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-12-2023 , 11:06 PM
if you have a psb left on the river and you dont think he bluffs or valuebets a worse hand, why would you check?
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-13-2023 , 02:01 AM
You need to be good 32.5% of the time here to call profitably. He could find the JT to bluff, but does he find the 54, 65, KJ, KT with backdoor flush draws on the flop? And does he even bluff a missed draw, or only just hopes to hit and give up? Could he ever have KK as played? AQ, Q9? You would think 99 and 33 might raise at some point as well, but I suppose in position they can still get the money in when you check a street.

I think there might be a case for making the exploitative laydown. A rec seems unlikely to bluff jam the river for huge unless you just know he's the type. I don't know if I agree with your assessment that if a rec is running good, they are more likely to bluff. If anything, I feel like I see them tighten up to lock in the win. Even if they do bluff with a normal buy in (and they may not be doing that even), they may be gun shy about playing a bluffing with a huge stack at risk.

If he was going to make a move with JT, maybe he would have raised you on an earlier street.

I think I would be calling in your shoes. This is going to be one of your best hands. But if continued evidence shows that the guy does not bluff, I would start overfolding vs this guy.
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-13-2023 , 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69
Seems like an easy shove by the river, not sure why you checked

Anyways call now
Basically this. The board is so benign, opponent has Qx so often and won't bet it himself but will call loads. This feels like "oh I've been called a couple of times I must be behind." You're ahead far more often than behind on this friendly board

Squeeze larger preflop. At least 300, probably towards 350
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-13-2023 , 08:10 AM
I would also raise Preflop larger. River jam is standard here. We are behind against QQ (3 combos) and 99 (also 3), however, these combos would sometimes raise otf or ott, so it's more like (2)+(2)=(4) in total. On the other hand, we are ahead against KK (already 6 combos, which would be enough to justify jaming otr) and some Qx top pair combos like AQ (still 6, although we block 6 of them), KQs (3). Sometimes these guys level themselfs and even find calls with JJ, TT or QJs and stuff.
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote
06-13-2023 , 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck
Did not look at spoiler. Given how dry this flop and runout are, I think I'm going smaller each street. I'm pretty sure theory supports this.
As played, there's 6 combos of QQ/99. Not sure V is opening 33 UTG and not 4 betting QQ. There's quite a few more Q9/JT/AQ/KQ.

Does V play Q9/JT/AQ/KQ at enough frequency this way? You need to make that decision.
Yes, V was playing too many hands, calling too much and aggressive when hit. I lack GTO knowledge but did know theory bets smaller here but exploitively better larger against this opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69
Seems like an easy shove by the river, not sure why you checked

Anyways call now
Agree - i'm realizing here I get too scared of nut and near nut hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submersible
if you have a psb left on the river and you dont think he bluffs or valuebets a worse hand, why would you check?
Agree - again the check is probably me fearing nuts but I did think he did overvalue the strength of his hands and thought he might value bet some stuff, probably wouldn't bluff though. Even still, should have shoved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mlark
You need to be good 32.5% of the time here to call profitably. He could find the JT to bluff, but does he find the 54, 65, KJ, KT with backdoor flush draws on the flop? And does he even bluff a missed draw, or only just hopes to hit and give up? Could he ever have KK as played? AQ, Q9? You would think 99 and 33 might raise at some point as well, but I suppose in position they can still get the money in when you check a street.

I think there might be a case for making the exploitative laydown. A rec seems unlikely to bluff jam the river for huge unless you just know he's the type. I don't know if I agree with your assessment that if a rec is running good, they are more likely to bluff. If anything, I feel like I see them tighten up to lock in the win. Even if they do bluff with a normal buy in (and they may not be doing that even), they may be gun shy about playing a bluffing with a huge stack at risk.

If he was going to make a move with JT, maybe he would have raised you on an earlier street.

I think I would be calling in your shoes. This is going to be one of your best hands. But if continued evidence shows that the guy does not bluff, I would start overfolding vs this guy.
Great points. I don't think he considered backdoors given the level of rec he was. I'm not saying all recs will start bluffing when they run good and have a healthy stack, but some might be more willing to "go for it" when it's "profits" from the session. I'm 100 percent certain of this, because as a rec, I tend do this. LOL. Easier for me to bluff when I'm up a decent amount that day. Silly logic, but it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moxterite
Basically this. The board is so benign, opponent has Qx so often and won't bet it himself but will call loads. This feels like "oh I've been called a couple of times I must be behind." You're ahead far more often than behind on this friendly board

Squeeze larger preflop. At least 300, probably towards 350
Yep - def had those thoughts during the hand. Squeeze size I agree with but in this case was somewhat an exploit to keep players in and make it easier to 4b.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji
I would also raise Preflop larger. River jam is standard here. We are behind against QQ (3 combos) and 99 (also 3), however, these combos would sometimes raise otf or ott, so it's more like (2)+(2)=(4) in total. On the other hand, we are ahead against KK (already 6 combos, which would be enough to justify jaming otr) and some Qx top pair combos like AQ (still 6, although we block 6 of them), KQs (3). Sometimes these guys level themselfs and even find calls with JJ, TT or QJs and stuff.
True - and they would check for a cheap showdown with these lower value hands.
pocket aces - stupid nice run out Quote

      
m