Been playing a new casino lately and the BI is 50-300$ for 1/2. The games plays very loose passive so Ive been aiming at TAG for awhile and trying to valuetown people with some success. Ive noticed a lot (as in most of the table) buys for 50$ or 100$ and then lurks for a few orbits before shoving (with some weirdos that cold call 30$ pre with a 75$ stack with QJs). I'm wondering if I should adopt this strat for a bit and how profitable it is. I'll put a couple HHs from tonight so this doesn't get locked.

V: old chinese man, folding lots, bought in for 50 and has taken a couple PF bets and blinds down without contest, 75$.

H: 450$, tight, playing ABC. Accidentally exposed A5o from EP when folding last hand and V said "woooow", as if H was playing too tight.

Hand 1:

H picks up J9cc and limps from BTN after several limpers including V. Flop comes A J 2, checks to V who makes it 5$ into about 10$. 1 call including H. V is now first to act.

Turn 9 (35$~)

V shoves for 70$

other V folds, H?

Hand 2:

V has about 125$, H covers. V limps from MP, H has QQdh from SB and makes it 17$ over several limpers, only V calls, HU.

Flop: A Q J

V shoves for about 110$ into 30$ ish.

Wondering how to handle Vs like this and if this is profitable long run strat? Won't give results but V walked away at end of his session with over 300$ after the single 50$ BI.

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I should include in my description that V has been shoving regularly. The pots he took down were almost all shoves pre for 3x the pot or a straddle call at 5$ then shoving flop. Seems positionally unaware. Couple limps to him in SB? Insta-shove for 55$.

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Pretty sure the guy from the hand histories is a pretty big loser. However, short stacking live can be very profitable. I'm actually of the belief that because the players adjust so poorly or fail to adjust at all to stack size, players make even bigger mistakes against you when short stacked. For instance, start raising 6bb+ only 99+ AKo with a stack of 40bb. Players will still call with suited connectors, small pocket pairs, suited garbage, etc... And now they're doing so with near zero implied odds. People are also more willing to call off a large bet when it's the last bet, so you can double up easier as a short stacker than getting a regular $100 bet called with a big stack.

Hand 1 is an easy call. Sounds like the flush got there and he had a bigger flush.
Hand 2 I assume you bet and he shoved (given the positions). Frankly, I am never folding a set to this type of player when HU (and seldom in any case on the flop).

As to playing like the maniac, don't do it unless you understand short stack play much better. I don't as I buy into my 2/5 for $1,000 (playing deep is a different skill).

Bird, you make some good points, most players don't understand that their IO goes down against a SS. However, they might not be making a mistake against the SS if there is another big stack in the hand, or to restate that, it might be correct to make that mistake in order to play the other big stack, which helps increase SS variance, and make no mistake, SS is incredibly high variance.

Also

This is actually one of the weaknesses of SS. Without further bets to worry about, calling can often be correct. For example, we only need 2-1 to call on flop with a flush draw or straight draw, whereas with money behind for the turn, we need to get closer to 4-1.

I do think one can make money as a SS, but it takes incredible discipline and the mental makeup to handle the coolers (which will be much more frequent). Those who think that SS can play a wider range of hands than say approximately the top 10% are simply fooling themselves because they are on a heater. We are simply looking for hands that make a good TP and getting it in ASAP. Since the best hand in holdem is generally 2 pair+, this can be very swingy. We simply cannot play small PP and SCs or we hemorrhage too much money to hit with them, especially to any sort of preflop raise.

Also, to OP, that second hand is not really SS, once we go over 50BB, we are not really SS, though we have a short stack.

Short stacking can have a positive WR. There are a lot of "buts" that go with that though.

Even the very best short stackers online have a lower WR than the best full stack players. A lot of situations are such that they are basic flips with maybe a 60/40 advantage. Online they compensate by being able to play a lot of tables with what is ultimately a pretty simple game. The main reason is their stack is going in pf or on the flop. In live play, you can only play 1 table at a time.

Online, there are plenty of tables to chose from and no restriction from hopping off one table and moving to another. They can keep the volume up. Live, you are often at the only room within a 10 or mile radius. You are forced to either sit out once you double up or stop playing short stack. One poster years ago swore that he was profitable at short stacking. However, he was playing on the strip in LV and could walk out the door and get to the next room in a few minutes. Most people don't have the choice of multiple rooms within quick walking distance.

You have to have good ranging skills. You want to have the best hand or know the villain will fold often to enter a pot. Make a couple of mistakes and your profit is gone.

I've tried short stacking on line when I was going through a rough patch playing. TBH, my profits ultimately came from redoubling up before I left the table because the online players assumed I was still playing my short stack strategy once a I had a bigger stack. They'd lose even more money calling me light.

I made something like $130/hr (forget the exact number) short stacking 5/10 online (4 tabling) over several months until I got tired of it. It was very boring. I wasn't on a heater. My Allin EV was close to neutral and AllinEV is everything in that scenario. People were just so aggressive playing 5/10 6 max that it was the perfect storm for a good short stacker back then. I still remember people complaining like crazy here about how the min buy ins should be raised and how short stackers were scum of the earth. LOL.

Short stacking live is a totally different ballgame though.

In hand #1, you should not be calling the flop bet with middle pair when the guy is so short. Especially when some of your outs bring a flush. Once you hit 2 pair its an instacall of his all in.

Hand #2...Villain isnt all that short anymore. No way Im folding a set to his shove but this really isnt an example of playing a short stacker at all.

Hand #1 - Easy call both on flop and on turn, especially if he's been shoving a lot of hands. We're often ahead and even when behind have a ton of outs.

Hand #2 - Again an easy call. Did you bet flop when you were first to act? You certainly should have.

You realize H has flush draw to go along with middle pair, right?

Ooops.

Venice I tend to agree with the point made above re: live players poorly adjusting. I suspect the avg o/l player is more aware of stacks and relative position not to mention short stack felting ranges than the avg live player. No?

But most live shorties are just very bad. And don't play a disciplined ss strat.

There is one short stacker who plays a mostly correct push bot strat in my player pool but he's a rare exception.

I am the short stacker cAmmAndo mentions. Some notes:
1) I like the $200-$300 buy-in in 2 5 and win 7BB+ an hour in that game over the years (very large sample size). However, not all that winrate comes from shortstacking - I often play deeper when table conditions favor it, the game is shorthanded, etc... (I do not breakdown my winrate by my stack size). And I play well beyond push bot, a lot of profit comes from exploiting specific bad reg tendencies.
2) I like short buy-ins in 1 2 as well assuming the table has 1 raiser and 3-4 callers dynamic, frequent straddles or a player that raises almost every hand. However for the 1 2 NL table, my preferred short buy-in is $100-$120. While I am sure $50-60 buy-ins can be profitable, you want to have a meaningful amount of money in front of you when you double up and $100-$120 is a very good amount for you to pick up $25-40 uncontested when player A raises, gets couple callers and you jam or to get all-in with high equity when you get called light (Do not ask me for shoving ranges-that's the work you need to do yourself and understand why you do what you do to be successful). Another drawback of a $50-60 buy-in is that live rake is typically in $5-$7 range, so you would be paying disproportionately high rake percentage.
3) Whether you buy-in short or deep, always look for tables with the most money on them.
4) Do not buy-in short at a 1 2 table full of tight passives with most hands being limped pots. At a table like that, you want to be at least semi-deep to have full implied odds with your drawing hands.
5) Short stacking can be extremely good strategy if you are a losing player. In that case, the very buy-in size will force you to play a somewhat TAG game and assuming you get up once you double up and rinse and repeat, it will be hard for you to lose a lot.
6) Short stacking can be fun in a Blackjack/roulette kind of way and you got to enjoy the variance/sweat that comes when you get it in with JJ and race against AQ (with a lot of dead money from in between callers of course!).

I always buy in for $300 at 2/5 and I could not agree with this any more than I do. I am normally not at $300 for long though. If I drop to $260ish I top off but obviously as soon as I win a few hands I get to $300-$500+ and I adjust my play from there. Most people cant adjust to my adjustments because they dont even realize Im adjusting based on stack size.

For me, $200 is too small though.

@AALegend, push bot an oversimplification on my part.

I would note op that if you plan to hit and run you will need "thick skin" as I'm sure AALegend can attest the h&r / rinse and repeat strat doesn't endear you to the other players in general.

AALegend happens to have the charming personality that makes him the short stacker they love to hate

I have found that buying into my regular $1/2 game with $140 - $160 works very well. I agree that SS buyin needs an active table. If you play at a nitty table short, you GII pre or on the flop behind way more often than at an active table. The nits are not gambling, they play to hit the flop hard.

Also, it is very hard in a live game, for players to keep track of how stack sizes change player's behavior. All things being equal, increase in stack is one of the least noticed behavior changes, until it's too late, and you are sitting on 500+ bb and someone says "whoa, seat 2 is having a really good night". LOLs

People that short stack are the fish

Thanks for the replies everyone.

V won both hands with premiums. I guess Im finding it difficult to adjust when I have a ten player table with 6 or so of the players playing 50bbs or less and just waiting to jam pre or call and jam any flop. The deep players were tightening up pre and most flops were limped six ways. I guess I just have to wait for a premium like top 5% when I open and be ready to call off 75$ pre with it. No room for limper punishing from LP with KTs sort of thing.

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What premiums did he have here? He limped both pots pre, if he really had a premium hand he's just a fish getting lucky.

Game sounds awful

This is not even close to short-stacking. Nothing above 40BBs is short stacking, and classic short-stack strategy is designed for 20BBs.

thank you. i thought buying in for less then the max was considered short stacking.

Actually, I somewhat disagree. Classic online short-stack strategy is based on 2x-3x opens prevalent online.
In a live 2 5 game when most opens are in the $25-$35 (5x-7x) range and there are more callers than in an online game, you need to have $200-$300 (40-60bb) to have fold equity and accomplish some of the same things that classic short-stack strategy does online.

Opens are that big at 2/5 in Philly? 5x is big around here, and 4x is standard.

I do agree with your point for 1/2 live though. Opens tend to be huge basically everywhere I've played it.

Standard open in 2/5 in S. Florida is $15-$20

Yep, probably a factor of the game being 1000 max, straddles, a number of very loose players in the player pool and also 5 10 not running particularly often and whales being forced to play below their preferred stakes.