Hello, I'm new to the forums and fairly new to poker in general. Mostly only play live and its a pretty casual home game. Less than 200 hours under my belt.

This hand is 3 ways with a fairly tight player and a loose cannon.

100bb effective I'm covered by both players, 6 max live 25c/50c

Preflop: Villain 1 (HJ) opens to 6bb (table usual is limp or 4-5bb)
Hero (CO) calls with KQ
Villain 2 (button) calls
Pot: 21bb

Flop: 27Q
Villain 1 (HJ) bets 20bb
Hero (CO) calls
Villain (button) calls
Pot: 81bb

Turn: 27Q7
Villain 1 (HJ) bets 10bb (1/8th pot)
Hero(CO) raises to 40bb
Villain 2 (button) calls
Villain 1 (HJ) shoves to make it 74bb
Hero (CO) calls for an additional 34bb (15% of pot)
Villain 2 (button) calls for additional 34bb

Villain 1 turns over 22 for a boat 22277
Villain 2 never showed

River brick

I know I didn't play this well, but I'd like some help sorting out my logic so I don't make the same mistakes.

Calling preflop feels ok

Calling pot size bet on flop with top pair K kicker and a flush draw on board was probably a mistake against this tighter player

Then when Villain 1 down bets to 10bb into 81bb pot after making 20bb raise on flop I start to think he is trying to see another card for cheap for a flush draw by betting a small amount and is also potentially scared of paired board. At least at our table there is a strategy of pot control by betting small and getting called so someone else doesn't bet big. So here I feel like there is a good chance I'm ahead villain 1 slowed down and villain 2 is a loose cannon. So I raise to 40bb thinking I'm ahead and not wanting to let flush draws see cheap cards.

Once the all in came from Villain 1 I should have folded because I'm behind but it was 34bb to call and there were 238bb in the pot. Can I fold to a 15% pot size bet with top pair even though I'm behind most of the time.

I need to learn the mistakes I made so I can make sure I don't repeat. In this instance I'm struggling because on every action in the moment it felt easy to justify each action.
Thank you for the thoughts.

Hey man

Don’t take this personally, but preflop is a gigantic leak. Think about it from purely a logical POV: the pot is 7.5 bb after the raise and you have to call for 6 bb. On 100 bb stacks, that’s 6% of your stack. And you’re investing 6% in the hope of connecting with a board. This isn’t winning poker. Against such a large open, if a hand is good enough to play, it’s good enough to 3 bet. If it isn’t good enough to 3 bet, you should fold. Moreover, by calling, it becomes viable for the button to call with a wider range of hands, meaning you won’t even get to be in position throughout the hand. But basically, if you are never the first guy to cold call a 6 bb open, you’ll be playing pretty close to optimal in that scenario.

As played, I’d have just gotten it in on the flop. The large open size and flop c-bet has made it so that a raise is barely bigger than the size of the pot. And we have one of the strongest hands we will ever have in this situation. Blocking KK/QQ/AQ makes it more likely villain is betting big on a flush draw as well, so it’s more likely we can gain value or equity denial by shoving.

As played, I like that you raise the turn against such a small bet, but once again, just go all in. Like imagine if other villain folds and primary villain calls. Pot is 161 bb and you have 34 bb behind. That’s 34 bb that you leave out there when he does have a flush draw, and 34 bb you won’t save when he does have you beat (since if he jams for the last 34 bb, you aren’t folding TP with good kicker getting 5.74:1). And obviously in this exact situation, our price is even better thanks to the other villain fluffing the pot.

So yeah, pay better attention to stacks and clean your preflop up.


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I really appreciate your input. It is really helpful because I was looking at the wrong part of the hand for my mistakes. For preflop I've basically been looking at johnathan little charts which has my hand as a 3 bet CO vs HJ but I wasn't checking charts during play. He does have KJs and QJs as calls. I couldn't remember where the line between call and 3 bet was at. But it sounds like you are also saying vs the 6bb open I need to tighten it up more. I was thinking live 5bb wasn't too uncommon as an open an 6bb only 1 more than that. But as you said I need to also account for stack size.

General rubric: the larger the open, the more condensed your calling range should be.


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I don’t think preflop is that big of a leak. Calling with KQs is still +EV compared to folding (which is 0EV) IMO. Some training sites advocate 3bet or fold from the CO (and actually all positions except the BTN/BB). As jdr points out, the purpose of the 3bet here is to drive the BTN out of the hand. Some comments when I’ll deviate from 3bet or fold: If the Blinds are loose splashy VIP players, I’ll do a lot more calling, to try to incentivize them to enter the hand.

If we raise flop we are going to fold out all of HJs bluffs. So I like the flop call.

Turn is quite strange from HJ. I am at a bit of a loss on the right move, given the other players in the hand. Surely not all players can have a draw. Neither V1/V2 should have a 7. I guess the raise is fine. I would probably have gone all-in myself.

if asked I'll deny it

BUT I agree with jdr preflop is a clear raise or fold spot


after flop just a bad beat

It’s not that calling KQs is losing money. It’s just that, if we have value against his range, why not reraise to 18, win the 7.5 bb sometimes, play a bloated pot in position most of the time? Something being +EV doesn’t make something a good play


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Didn’t see in OP which guy this was. If it’s the loose cannon then you’re raising for value and it’s a much different situation.

For the tight player, if you raise its kind of as a bluff to take it away on the flop with a hand that blocks a lot of premium hands. The key is that this guy is a tight player.

If you’re calling, it’s to value own the loose player with a hand that beats his range. If you’re calling against the tight player it’s to try to outplay him with position. I don’t think you know why you’re calling other than you read it somewhere. I’d be really wary of this hand on all streets vs. a tight player, even when he opens in HJ.

Thanks for clarification, I 100% agree.

Yeah I think the way to explain it with a concrete example would be something like this:

5 limps to you. You have AA on the button and you overlimp.

Is this +EV? Certainly. AA is the best starting hand in the game, and we have position

Is this maximizing EV? Of course not. Like if we make a minraise and all the limpers and bb call, we have the same equity plurality and position for double the money. So it’s automatically better. The optimal number to make it can be argued, but it’s clear that some number that is 2 bb or more is better than a 1 bb overlimp.


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[QUOTE=jdr0317;57058840]Hey man

Think about it from purely a logical POV: the pot is 7.5 bb after the raise and you have to call for 6 bb. On 100 bb stacks, that’s 6% of your stack. And you’re investing 6% in the hope of connecting with a board. This isn’t winning poker. Against such a large open, if a hand is good enough to play, it’s good enough to 3 bet. If it isn’t good enough to 3 bet, you should fold. Moreover, by calling, it becomes viable for the button to call with a wider range of hands, meaning you won’t even get to be in position throughout the hand. But basically, if you are never the first guy to cold call a 6 bb open, you’ll be playing pretty close to optimal in that scenario.

I love this explanation about the value of 3 Betting from the field (not on the BTN or BB), especially in this case against a larger than normal PFR from a tight player. And obviously it is an antidote for getting squeezed. Do you see this principle changing somewhat in the last couple years as since more players are 3 betting light, and in response, more are calling. Bart Hanson in the Fast Track 2.0 curriculum is advocating less 3 betting, especially from the blinds, due to more players calling and the blinds being OOP? Also, do you follow this principle as much in full ring live 1-3, 2-5 games?

In my games the real danger is players cold calling opens with KK+ then back shoving.

I employ this strategy (from Jonathan Little) usually against an UTG raise in EP or early MP, and am seeing it more from other players.

This is perfectly ok to do if we think field players are going to squeeze too much in these spots. Still think a novice or intermediate player will be better suited just playing extremely tight and 3 betting when he elects to enter the pot. Poker is hard enough, adding more variables just creates more opportunity to make bad decisions.


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[QUOTE=sweetzer;57059409]
Yeah games are getting much more 3 bet happy. At least at deeper 2/5 and 5/10 levels. 1/2, 1/3, and 100 bb 2/5 games are still going to be fairly passive on average, IME. But basically the call/back 4 bet is the new limp/reraise in these games.

Like the reason for LRR is because people raise limps too much, call raises too much, and don’t 3 bet against a raise often at all. So someone would LRR from up front to exploit a field that plays that way.

Call/back 4 bet becomes sexier when people 3 bet too much and rarely 4 bet. Which is a lot closer to how games like what you’d see on streamed poker play. Plus, in the event that you have hands that are kind of “worth playing”, like JTs 500 bb deep facing a 3-4x open, you kind of have to occasionally call with a huge hand to protect yourself from being squeezed.


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What about when the villain 4 bets you? Now you've put in 18bb and have created a hand where you still don't know where you stand...especially if the opponent is observant and thinks you are betting light?

I'm not saying not to three-bet here, but I've never seen anyone "three-bet" every hand like you seem to advocating (if its good enough to call, its good enough to raise).

As for this hand, sometimes you're going to lose, especially with fairly short stacks like here. Sets against TPTK, or overpairs, are one of the most common sights in NLHE - especially low limit.

I didn’t say it was good just that it happens. In my games it’s only good when someone is likely to 3 bet. Even with me at the table that’s not true. They just end up going multi-way with a big pocket pair and inevitably curse their luck when one of the other 6 callers out draws them.

Yeah if that’s the way the games are playing, definitely don’t try to trap against EP opens.


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