In case it is not obvious by my post count, I am very new to the forums. I have a decent amount of online experience where I was a losing player (tilt control, and br management was a huge part of this). I have been post on here for the past couple weeks or so. I am here to get myself back in the "zone" before I take my game to the felt in a month or so. I have decided to post a hand from over the summer that was interesting.

The table dynamics:

It is about 5am-6am in the morning and all of the players have been at the tables since at least 12am. There has been a lot of 3betting by these 3 drunk guys a couple seats to my left and they are all losing a decent amount. Most of the other players are passive but they are gambling. There had been a couple rounds of mandatory straddles though this hand was not straddled.

Villain 1: A guy in his mid to late 30's who was one of the least active players at the table. If I had to guess he only puts money in with ~15% of hands. He is definitely losing for the session. I have no post flop reads. (~500 behind)

Villain 2: A older man who I have been making friendly table chat with for most of the session. He is much tighter than V1. He is sitting directly to my left. I also have nothing concrete on him postflop. He is winning for the session (~400 behind)

Hero covers the villains. Hero has been playing pretty standard TAG all night. Hero has also been playing for about 14 hours in a row. Up a decent amount for the evening. Hero has also been inactive for the past 3 hours and most of his money was won within the first 2 hours of the session.
The Hand:

V1 (UTG) raises to $15, UTG +1 folds, hero is dealt KK
Hero?

Assuming this is 1/2?

Start by 3 betting to $50-55.

Whoops, yes this is 1/2. sry.

Grunch...

3b to 50...if we are cold 4b by villain on left (which I'm assuming) I am just flatting but betsizing is important

What Miami said. $45-50/call.

Yep- got to re-raise here. If 4-bet just flat.

obv 3bet spot. $50 sounds good to me.

For those saying call a 4bet...do nitty 1/2 players have a 4betting range pre? Or are we turning KK into a set mine?

Depends how nitty... not all nits were created equal, bit I don't think we're really calling to set mine or calling to fold, its just that usually his call 5b range is going to be super tight, and the SPRs are going to make it pretty easy to play postflop. We can probably fold a few board textures like QJx or Axx.. I probably flat with AA to the 4b as well, might dump QQ.. if villain is going to call us off preflop with like 1010+, AK, we could 5b, don't think this is likely given description though since his range is already probably JJ+ (maybe QQ+/AK) for 4betting.

I agree with this post.

Superman- I'm not setmining but the description given on v2 ....a cold 4b will be qq+ maybe aks but I don't put all combos in..maybe half of them. If we 5b we only get called by AA as there is only 1 combo of Kk.

In case it is not obvious by my post count, I am very new to the forums. I have a decent amount of online experience where I was a losing player (tilt control, and br management was a huge part of this). I have been post on here for the past couple weeks or so. I am here to get myself back in the "zone" before I take my game to the felt in a month or so. I have decided to post a hand from over the summer that was interesting.

The table dynamics:

It is about 5am-6am in the morning and all of the players have been at the tables since at least 12am. There has been a lot of 3betting by these 3 drunk guys a couple seats to my left and they are all losing a decent amount. Most of the other players are passive but they are gambling. There had been a couple rounds of mandatory straddles though this hand was not straddled.

Villain 1: A guy in his mid to late 30's who was one of the least active players at the table. If I had to guess he only puts money in with ~15% of hands. He is definitely losing for the session. I have no post flop reads. (~500 behind)

Villain 2: A older man who I have been making friendly table chat with for most of the session. He is much tighter than V1. He is sitting directly to my left. I also have nothing concrete on him postflop. He is winning for the session (~400 behind)

Hero covers the villains. Hero has been playing pretty standard TAG all night. Hero has also been playing for about 14 hours in a row. Up a decent amount for the evening. Hero has also been inactive for the past 3 hours and most of his money was won within the first 2 hours of the session.
The Hand:

V1 (UTG) raises to $15, UTG +1 folds, hero is dealt KK

hero call $15, V2 calls $15, all other players fold.

FLOP J K J

I decided to slow play the kings. This is something that I have probably never done in a live game. I really wanted to reraise the spastic 3 betters to my left, but it did not happen. I have little to no full ring experience, so UTG+1 with a good hand was quite confusing to me at the time. I do not believe that it is a horrible play, but I believe that raising is better. So I am going to flop with the two tightest players at the table.

V1 bets $25, hero? (pot is $73)

well you obv just flopped gin and now we need to start building a pot before a cooler rolls off on the turn and kills your action. Raise to $80 for value and do anything possible to get it all in on the flop.

I'm sorry what's the confusion here? You have KK preflop and are only facing a $15 raise? 3bet to $50? If he 4bets, I probably just call. On the flop, you are only losing to quad Jacks. You just flopped top boat. Reraise him. If he shoves, range is either trip Jacks or JK (smaller boat) or quads or AA. Still obvious call and blame the poker gods if he flips over JJ.

But, there are much more experienced people on these forums, who know a lot more than me. Ignore my advice if someone disagrees because I am probably wrong. This is just what I would do.

Any merit to slowplaying this flop? A raise makes QQ fold, AA may fold as well. I would like to keep his weaker range in. Afterall, the pot is already medium sized and a raise gets AK/aa/QQ to fold, surely QQ. Lets think of his probable EP range: 1010+ AJ+. AJ is one of the few hands that will continue to a raise, and Ak is hardpressed to continue. Of course if he flopped quads the money is going in regardless otf or later.

He could have something like AQhh, where his only outs are runner runner boat or royal flush. A ten makes it hard on him to fold that as well.

If say he has QQ and binks a Q, we win that much more.

I say call, and V2 will probably put in a raise with Jx to protect, etc. I think with this flop the goal is to keep them both in. I may bomb the turn. But for now, I say call.

There is only like 5 cards in the deck that kill our action a bit, and villain(s) likely have a couple of those outs, so now thats like 3 outs. I like calling and making it look like AK/KQ, or hearts. Pot is already growing and they are doing the betting for us. Raising is obv fine, but I want villain(s) to continue with a lot worse than just coolers.

I raise it up preflop to like $50. If villain repops us, I would consider folding KK preflop for the second time in my life (cuz we're playing deep, we're playing against a tight player who raised UTG, and we also have a tight image). However, I could *possibly* see smoothcalling here if I thought that one of the drunk guys behind us is going to 3bet (does this happen a lot?), although that does get us in a sticky situation if villain 4bets.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Villain 1 and 2 have $900 between them and you've only gotten $30 of that in there preflop with your slow play. Raising this flop is absolutely necessary if you want to stack them. Hope that your villains have some combination of AA, Jx, AK, KJ.

I actually don't think the call/reraise attempt is horrible, but only if the drunks are 3betting quite a lot; if the drunks are just calling big raises preflop, then I don't like it.

As played, our goal should be to get stacks in comfortably by the river if anyone has anything, so we're sorta targeting Kx/Jx hands. Even straight/flush draws might give us action. All other hands won't give us much action so we're really not concerned about those at all. So let's raise it up. I'd probably just do a typical 3x raise here (although that is sorta lol due to the size of the pot), but I'm just looking to build a pot here.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I don't think so. Weak hands simply aren't going to put in much more action, so we're really not worried about them. But AA, Kx, Jx and straight/flush draws will give us action, so let's build the pot street by street until our final push on the river will be a reasonable bet that even AA will struggle to find a fold to. Plus the board is drawy; there are a lot of cards that can fall that even AA/Kx hands can give up on.

^^ Makes sense, also factor in the villains have played 5+ hours so they likely arent able to fold the weaker of the value range (Kx or AA, and Fd) Also factor in table has played relatively gambly.

So forget my post, I stand corrected

I think HOC even has a section on this. The benefits from fastplaying a hand against the small range of good hands that will eventually pay off their stacks vastly outweighs the times where we make a little bit more money off mediocre hands thanks to slowplaying.

Grunch. I hate pre. Raise to 60 and pray v2 has a jack behind you and spazzes out or v1 has Ak or Aj. I hope you didn't flat here...

At 1/2 I am raising almost 100% of time. Remember v is 160 deep we want to give him a chance to get more money in. Flatting looks like a j a lot of the time to villain and he will shut down unimproved as he is nitty. At higher stakes I will balance raising and calling.

The confusion I was referring to was preflop playing UTG+1 to an open from UTG. I also believe that playing the flop is awkward from the stance of extracting value because you are just rarely in a multiway pot with nits.

In case it is not obvious by my post count, I am very new to the forums. I have a decent amount of online experience where I was a losing player (tilt control, and br management was a huge part of this). I have been post on here for the past couple weeks or so. I am here to get myself back in the "zone" before I take my game to the felt in a month or so. I have decided to post a hand from over the summer that was interesting.

The table dynamics:

It is about 5am-6am in the morning and all of the players have been at the tables since at least 12am. There has been a lot of 3betting by these 3 drunk guys a couple seats to my left and they are all losing a decent amount. Most of the other players are passive but they are gambling. There had been a couple rounds of mandatory straddles though this hand was not straddled.

Villain 1: A guy in his mid to late 30's who was one of the least active players at the table. If I had to guess he only puts money in with ~15% of hands. He is definitely losing for the session. I have no post flop reads. (~500 behind)

Villain 2: A older man who I have been making friendly table chat with for most of the session. He is much tighter than V1. He is sitting directly to my left. I also have nothing concrete on him postflop. He is winning for the session (~400 behind)

Hero covers the villains. Hero has been playing pretty standard TAG all night. Hero has also been playing for about 14 hours in a row. Up a decent amount for the evening. Hero has also been inactive for the past 3 hours and most of his money was won within the first 2 hours of the session.
The Hand:

V1 (UTG) raises to $15, UTG +1 folds, hero is dealt KK

hero call $15, V2 calls $15, all other players fold.

FLOP J K J

I decided to slow play the kings. This is something that I have probably never done in a live game. I really wanted to reraise the spastic 3 betters to my left, but it did not happen. I have little to no full ring experience, so UTG+1 with a good hand was quite confusing to me at the time. I do not believe that it is a horrible play, but I believe that raising is better. So I am going to flop with the two tightest players at the table.

V1 bets $25, hero? (pot is $73)

Hero calls $25

Although the reasoning is probably poor, I decided to flat this flop to extract the maximum from a J and get another bet from V1 on the turn. Given the fact that 3 kings are gone, I do not think that there is a good chance that either villain has one. I also do not believe that the correct way to extract value from a K is to raise. If someone has a flush/straight draw, I certainly do not want to blow them off of it. If someone has a big hand, I think that I am going to win a lot of money regardless.

V2 calls $25 (pot is $123)

Turn Q

V1 checks, hero?

What do we put the villains on here?

At this point in the hand, I put V1 on air(perhaps a K) and V2 on a J (possibly a boat), or a big draw (like AQ).

Should we bet here? If so, how much?

V2 is going to bet a J, and then I can go for a check-raise. If he has a draw, he is likely going to check behind, so we can hope that a heart comes on the river. That is really about all I got for the arguments for checking.

After the fact, I like betting something in the 40-55 range because we have to start building a pot and he will prolly call with a flush draw. We can bet something in the ballpark of 175 on the river hoping that he made a flush or has a J. Thoughts?

The reasoning is definitely poor and almost exactly the opposite of correct. Your goal is to get the rest of your money into the middle while your opponent's money is also there. You can't do that slowplaying multiple streets given how deep the stacks are.