This hand probably would have played out the exact same way. If Villain #1 was willing to limp/call preflop, he probably would have flatted your opening raise too. Maybe Villain #2 would have 3-bet his AK or AQ, but if he just flats then you have the same size pot + initiative, so likely you are going to be making the same bet on the flop and Villain #1 is going to take the same strategy of flatting the flop and coming to life on the turn.

And I don't think flatting your flop bet was necessarily a mistake on his part. The board had no draws, and you were unlikely to have much better than what you actually had at that point, which wouldn't be able to stand a raise. You don't want to force out 2-outers - you want to keep them around and see if you can get more value from them on later streets.

oh dear

put more money in the pot when you're ahead. This isn't hard.

So in your opinion basing your play off 2 outing a flopped set is not being results oriented, but unorthodox. Hmm. I would hate to see results oriented thinking then.

Hopefully you'll hear what a lot of people are saying. TT is a good preflop hand which doesn't play particularly well multiway unless you flop a set.

You don't know ahead of time that someone in the blinds is going to raise. If everyone just calls, you're wasting a good hand to setmine in a tiny pot.

So next time, just raise. If you get 3b at 1/2, you fold unless you're getting odds to setmine.

If I made it $10 pre-flop and Villain #1 called and Villain #2 raised and we both called. Then I doubt #1 would have slow played his set on the flop. Even if #2 didn't 3-bet, #1 would know, from my open raise, that I had a premium hand. AJ at the worst. That means he can put a raise in there on the flop and expect that either I or #2 might call or even re-raise the J - 8 - 2 board. At that point, I would have gone from doubling up to losing a small pot.

I'd say me open raising pre-flop is 50% likely to change the hand from win to loss.

By making it seem like I didn't have that much, I kept Villain #1 from playing his flopped set fast - allowing me to catch up. Do you really think he would have just called on the flop if he thought I had QQ or AJ?

I knew this was going to be misinterpreted. My bad. I meant "mistake" in an objective sense. If he had all the information about the hand ahead of time.

No draws? You mean, besides T9, right?

Speaking non-objectively, how would he know or assume that I have a 2-outer on the flop? And if he did know, why would he think he can get more out of me on the turn? Let's assume, for a moment, that he knows I have TT and my playing style. If I don't improve, I'm 85% of the time going to check it down or fold. Sure, 15% of the time I might bluff if there's a scare card, but then again - he doesn't know what I have. I might have T9 too.

I don't consider TT to be all that far ahead of AK / AQ and a random hand (even if it is 22) pre-flop. Unless I'm going to play TT like a huge pair tournament style. I need to see the flop first. And even then... nothing's for certain.


If we count 2 outing a flopped set on the turn, then we have to count him 2 outing a flopped set to begin with and Villain #2 not 6 outing his overcards. And the flop not giving me an open-ended straight draw or three Jacks or giving either Villain quads.

Yes, every particular hand seen under a microscope is going to seem results oriented. What I'm trying to say is that there are other ways to play a hand besides whatever your strategy is.

Yes, I hear. I've taken it in.

I have enjoyed the opinions of those who posted. Perhaps the probability wave has been subtly altered in my little section of the matrix. If so, then thanks for that. But, keep in mind, I did not post this hand specifically looking for a critique of what I did wrong or what I could have done better. This is not a purely advice-seeking thread. This is PAHWM. So, I hope you are not offended if I reject some or all of an individual's subjective wisdom.


VS

You have to raise pre here. Limping TT in middle position is so weak tight it makes me want to gag. You realize you're ahead here so often, right? Let's try to get some value and charge a premium to worse hands! The reason you were breakeven before is because of plays like this.

Late to the party.

Was there any limpers to us? Anyhoo, I'm rather whatever about middling pairs like 88/99/TT. I'm *usually* for raising TT but I'm fine with limping it too; encouraging a very multiway limped pot is never a bad thing with this hand (and basically setmining), and playing it HU OOP (which a raise could do here) could be tricky, so I don't think a raise is an absolute slam-dunk. As played, effective stacks ain't great for setmining, and I think TT is probably too weak to go for a limp/reraise, but in the end it's probably just too strong to fold, plus we have position, plus it'll probably be at least a 3 way pot, plus if we flop a set we're probably stacking someone. So I call the raise and go from there.

I donk 1/2 PSB on the flop when the raiser checks to us. Our hand is most likely good but also vulnerable.

Your example is using 500BB stacks, and that's fine.

But this hand the effective stack is 75 BB. If we flop a set and anyone else has anything as good as TP, we shouldn't have any problems getting stacks in against the typical donk.

Nice turn. If I've counted right, we have $120 left and the pot is $70. I'd probably bet ~$55 and then shove the rest in on the river (obviously calling any other action due to us having a set and fairly short at this point).

GfindsthatPAHWMsarealoteasierwhenweturnsetsG

For everyone who is so up in arms about open limping preflop, what about if OP had 99? 88? Everyone here is insta-raising 77? At loose passive tables with smallish stacks (i.e. stacks that we'll have no problems getting in postflop if need be), I think it's fine to play TT as basically a setmining hand and open limp in order to invite as many people into the pot as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think raising here is terrible (and might even be my preferred option depending on table conditions). But limping simply isn't as lol bad as everyone is making it out to be, IMO.

That's a good point. For some people, the "big hand" cutoff is somewhere between 99 and JJ. I consider TT to be a good medium strength hand and JJ a premium hand. I'm probably more likely to open raise with a pair of Jacks than Tens. However, in some cases I might still limp in order to disguise the strength of my holdings. It depends on a number of factors.

VS

oh jeeze...

oh jeeze...? Oh please! Let me guess, you're the greatest live low-stakes no limit hold'em player ever. Even better than Phil Hellmuth (if he played low-stakes), right?

Anytime you want to play at my table, just let me know.

VS

I think flop is the most standard check call in the world.
Check calling any turn that's not an ace, or K.

We have a weak pair or a draw here most of the time, calling at least twice and kinda hoping he won't bluff the river. He may check back the river a decent amount with worse pairs and ace highs b/c he has SD value vs your range of draws on alot of runouts.

1010 is a top 7 hand... You will have the best hand preflop such a high % of the time, its a mandatory raise, especially when not exactly UTG. Thats all I am saying. Saying you want to see the flop first is like what the fish say when they wont raise AK

But if TT is a mandatory raise, then what about one pip below of 99? 88? And all of this is for preflop, which is a small percentage of the stack. So we have a moderate equity advantage preflop when everyone puts in their $10; big deal. Postflop things are going to change quite a lot, and that's when we're playing for stacks.

I'm just saying the surpassing our small preflop advantage in order to guarantee a good multiway pot brewing with small stacks when we will flop a T 1 out of 8 times and be able to get in stacks as like a 95% favourite against some doofus that we allowed into the pot is never a bad thing.

In MP TT should be a fistpump raise. 40% of the field has identified their hand strength to a good degree and we have a top 6 hand. If we limp this and villains see it, how do we expect to get called when we raise qq+ preflop? When I see a villain limp AK, TT, etc, I begin to never give him action unless he's beat, or I have a small pp that he wll stack with on lots of flops since the preflop range is so nutted (these villains dont know this though). OP seems to want to play whack-a-mole postflop. I don't think limping 1010 is awful in EP, but what does a passive image do for our action the times actually bet?

And if OP is not comfortable playing postlop with initiative wiht somehting like 88, limp along since it cant handle as many boards as TT. All I'm saying is TT is a really strong hand that can get a lot more value then open limpin in MP, ainec

If we check the flop, then it gives Villain's 1 and 2 a free ride to fourth street. What are the odds that an Ace, King, or Queen doesn't come on the turn or river? Plus the draws and set-mining two-outers?

Obviously, the guy with the set of deuces will bet the flop if we check (90% of the time). If he bet something smaller than $20 or, then Villain #2 (who most likely has either AK or AQ) might call - he might even call $20 - $30 if he believes I'm going to fold. At that point, we have to hit our T on the turn or lose the pot.


TT is exactly in 7th place.

Post-flop play is a big part of my poker game. I have a different style than you and a different evaluation of TT - I see it as only marginally better than 99 or AJ. It's ok that we don't all play the same. And I'm definitely not afraid to raise pre-flop with AK, TT, or 76 suited. It depends on the circumstances.


VS

But you do realize that in this particular case, raising pre-flop with TT (i.e. playing it your way) would probably lose us a small pot instead of doubling up, right?

If I only raised with JJ or better pre-flop, then I agree with you. I would get called a lot less unless I'm beat by observant, competent players. That's why, under the right circumstances, I'll raise pre-flop with 33 or JT suited or AJ.

Now, TT is in the top 6 hands? Hahaha... ok.

1. AA

2. KK

3. QQ

4. JJ

5. AK

6. AQ

7. TT

8. AJ

9. 99

10. KQ


That's my personal list. I'm sure others will have a different opinion based on math and whatnot. But this is the hierarchy of top hands by which I play.


VS

Everybody who bangs on about being a post flop superstar seems to miss the point that making extra value from pre flop doesn't exclude this. They are also mostly delusional.

That would be results oriented thinking though man.... Sure THIS time he hits a set with 22, and probably c/raisese the flop and we fold. There is no guarentee he c/raises. He may c/call and we bink the turn, so we still get in stacks.

What about the other times he calls with 22 and we take it down? We raised, so we won a bigger pot than limping. So it goes both ways.

Another example: We have TT and raise pre, villain calls with a suited ace and the flop comes AT3. He know has top pair with a smaller SPR and the chances he has an ace go way up since we dont even have blockers. The pot is bigger so we can get more value out of our hand.

And yes, TT is the top 6 of hands, as its a 56/44 favorite over your AJ, AQ, AK. Its behind only JJ+.
How can you put AJ ahead of TT when you dont even know if you are good when you do hit an ace on the flop, let alone being mathmatically behind? The value you get out of top pair with an acejack is way less than TT because you are dominated sometimes, cant get huge value because you may have to pot controla street bc or the relative strength of your decent ace kicker.

Actually come to think of it, TT is the 5th best hand if you go by preflop equity =)

+1 and usually results oriented. I know a player who isnt TERRIBLE by 1/2 standards but continues to exclaim he likes to call raises bc he is a better postflop than preflop player. He's delusional about the preflop concepts..

I'm not banging on. I don't think I'm a post-flop superstar. I just like a little more information before getting all school-girl-giddy with TT.

With AK - AJ, I know where I am more so than with TT. If you want to make pocket 10's the third or second best pre-flop hand in Texas Hold'em, then go ahead. That's your choice. I've got my hierarchy, and it works well for me.

VS

Not to sidetrack, but is TT a simple 'call a raise hand' or do we often 3-bet this hand for value? Villain dependent?