Table and history

Hero is 21, white and aggressive, not really loose this session due to table
dynamics.

Table is mostly your standard loose passive game, except for two young guns who were seated to my left, who were re-raising me, calling me IP and hampering my table domination attempts. Thankfully, they just left and Villain just sat down.

Villain is mid 40s, well dressed, he just sat down this orbit, but he handles his chips very confidently, does chip shuffling with a full stack without fumbling and generally looks like he is paying attention. He bought in for standard $200 and played a single hand so far. He raised from the HJ with AQs, got one caller on the BU, cbet KQ2, got called, check -check on a brick turn, check called a missed flush draw bluff on brick river. He has like $260 now. Hero covers.

Hand:
Villain [BB]
1 caller [MP]
Hero [BU] is dealt AJ raises $10.
SB folds, Villain and unimportant MP caller come along.
[Pot:$31]
Flop:
58J
Villain bets $25. ($225)
MP folds.
Hero calls $25.
[Pot: $81]
Turn:
38J5
Villain bets $60. ($165)
Hero ..?

Donking big is not something offline players do often, so I was a bit befuddled there. Also not knowing the villain, particluary not knowing how jam happy is he with his draws, I decided to call and reevaluate turn. Which bricked and he kept pushing.

Fold/call/raise?
Probably you think I should have played flop differently?

I'm making this $14 pre

OTF I am mixed between calling and raising. The problem with raising is that he could easily 3bet us here with almost his entire continuing range, and of course he could also shut down with J10-KJ hands. If he 3bets us we hate life. Calling and evaluating the turn probably plays out easier.

OTT - he lead into us again but it doesn't really tell us much. His range is still the same and the board hasn't changed (unless he as 55 somehow). We need to make a plan right now. If we call his $60 what are we doing on blank rivers and he shoves? His bet is weak OTT but it actually sets up a nice shove OTR. If we flat here and he checks a blank river how much value are we going to be able to get out of him? Shoving may be the best move OTT... although I am not feeling good about it TBH but only because I hate playing for stacks with unknowns with one pair. If we shove though I think he calls his Jack hands, flush draws, and combos. Against that range we want to get it in now.

For me, I don't do anything differently up to this point except raise bigger pre. If you are a LAGgier player than I am, though, you are raising much more often and maybe smaller is your standard.

I don't see a lot of donking on cbettable boards, but when a player does, I assume in the absence of other reads they are pretty fit/fold and have never thought of letting opponents "hang themselves"...probably typical passive thinking. I see less draw betting, especially leading, at live tables.

Turn I don't like. Nothing changed and he's still firing away. It's starting to look like something that has TP beat here. I'm thinking sets, tricky/passive overpairs, possibly J8ish. But, I don't see people 2barrel draws oop often. I'm looking for the door feeling if I call now, I kind of have to call a missed river and pay off a better hand. I likely just fold and look for another spot. He has no idea what we raised him with pre.

Fwiw, I have yet to see a player 3barrel oop and not show a strong hand live. Heck, it's rare online. This is certainly not QJ if he fires a blank turn. It's likely rather polarized, and we don't have any reads to think it's a draw.

You raised preflop so "Obviously" you must have AK/AQ and V's KJ is the nuts...

Similarly, KQcc type hands can take this line.

Donk bets like this imo are usually the V's way of saying, "look, I have a real hand, your AK is no good, please go away."

If V was really strong, i.e. set strong I expect for him to go for the good ol c/r because most players c-bet...

At this level, I'm more than comfortable playing for stacks on this board.

V can overvalue his J and put you on a FD or the ubiquitous AK.
V can be on a FD
KK-AA usually would have 3bet pre
Only hands that crush us are QQ, 88, 55 (JJ unlikely)

add all this up and i'm comfortable stacking off here against an unknown for 100BB ish. If he has it, meh, he has it.

So I raise him here. He has about $160 left??? which would be less than a PSB to your raise, so shovel it.

Its been my experience that once V's donk bet inferior hands, they really don't let up. They sigh and say, "Damn, you got AA or KK huh? Yeah, I know I'm beat... okay I call"

Then V shows KJ type hand. I see it all the time. And if this is the time he has us crushed, meh, so be it.

PF: I'd make it $12, but raising to $10 is still a fine play.

Flop: I can see a call or a raise here, but I feel like calling was the correct play.

Turn: Raise. His 2-barrel donk range isn't nearly as strong as you think it is. If he had a hand better than TPTK, he'd likely c/r flop. He more likely has a J, FD, or SD, all of which we are beating. Raise here to get it in. There are so many bad turn cards that can come up that I don't see calling as a good choice, although I suppose calling and calling down on any river that misses the FD isn't bad either. Remember, a reason we're shoving here and not folding is our opponent. From the OP, he seems like a competent, aggressive player, and will likely bet a fairly wide range of hands here OTT. If he was just some standard loose-passive fish, I'd consider folding turn or possibly calling turn and river, but against this type of opponent, I feel a shove is most profitable. WP.

I didn't raise flop, because I was really afraid of a 3-bet.
Still being confused I called turn. Probably not the best play in hindsight, but what I thought: he either hes a worse J he overplays, he has me crushed or he is on a draw. If river bricks out, I will go to showdown and win/lose/win, if draws come in, he'll probably check, or if he keeps betting at a 3-flush board I probably can lay this down.


[Pot: $201]
Turn:
38J56
Villain bets $165. ($0)
Hero ..?

Problem is you repped your hand like you had the FD. He has no reason to give up. What I find curious is that he shoves instead of going for some kind of thin value which would make a lot more sense because of the way you played your hand. I think this is a call.

should jam turn if you're not folding imo.

+1

Villain is also playing this like J8/set...afraid of the flush draw. 1/2 players are not donking 3 streets into the pfr w/o TP beat. Clear fold, perhaps on the turn.

Jam turn.

I tend to raise the flop though but I am really aggressive.

As played your hand is really under repped and you gotta call the river.

They are with 9c10c (I shoved OTR because thats the only way I could win), J10, QJ, KJ, and AJ being that OP played his hand like it was a FD the whole way.

Can some one explain in detail why shoving turn is good vs. Vs range?

Your hand is under repped, and he could have fired 2 barrels with some sort of combo draw which makes up the majority of his range. The only hands you are afraid of is 33/88/J8 which is a small percentage of his range and he might stack off with KJ.

Also shoving the turn is like a PSB so it works perfectly.

Sorry, not going to go into detail, but there's just not enough safe river cards, you have no idea what his range is and he has initiative. He could have 67 for a straight draw, 910 for a straight draw or clubs. He could also be doing this with J/x.

On the river you need to fade a Q, 7, 4, 9 to fade all straight draws, as well as all clubs. Thats half the deck. So if one of those cards comes out you need to accept that you're getting outplayed a good portion of the time. If a brick comes off, and he shoves then you have to hope that he is bluffing and call. If a brick comes off and he checks, you cannot bet for value, so you got the minimum amount of value for your hand.

Just decide to stick it in or fold imo.

Because he will get in almost his whole range OTT and we are not guaranteed he will do so OTR. If he misses his FD he might be done paying you. But if you get it in OTT he is more likely to continue. OTT you are playing a wider range, OTR you are playing a more narrow range (most of the time), and because of the way you played it you ended up with a more difficult problem which makes it close to a crying call.

If you are calling the turn you have to call this river. It is one of the most innocent cards and its time to look a man up here

im never raising the flop given villain's sizing. he's sizing as if he has 2P/set. if you get 3B you have to fold.

on turn im shoving for reasons above.

as played you have to call river. im guessing he had a set?

want to grunch your hand, but wtf happened on the turn the 5 changed suits and a 3 came out...which was first?

It was 3 of hearts otf, sorry for confusion.

I called river, he showed 333.

Thanks all for your response.

Raising the flop really helps define the hands, although you are still basically comimtted to call a push because there are so many straight/fd combos that might bet/3b all in. However, a lot of this is player dependent but against an unknown I'd probably stack off here.

Obviously if he is passive and bet/3b's you then you can fold easily, but again this is versus a relative unknown so just say "nh" and move on.

Results are pretty irrelevant for this hand. We're obviously way behind his value range unless he takes this line with K/J which is very unlikely.

You need to figure out beforehand if he has enough bluffs/semi bluffs to make a shove profitable on the turn, we're obviously destroyed by his value range. I think that calling turn and river and is a pretty big leak. You need to hope first of all that you're ahead, that you fade the turn and the river, and then that he decides to bluff into you on the river. This is going to happen pretty rarely.

His line is the one I don't often see live.


@ Bluegrassplayer what line would suggest?

still think fold or jam turn is the correct play.