I still "raise to see where I'm at/take it down" in spots like this sometimes with marginal hands. I get ragged on a bunch but I'm still not convinced its as terrible a play as people say. Mainly OOP.

Something was up with that bet size, wish we had more info on V to call him down but can't fault the fold.

Ok I've given you logic throughout the thread (as have others) but you choose to ignore. But I'll give it one more shot for you.

Nowhere itt this thread have you given villain a range. You have talked about him folding out some better hands but what portion of his range does that represent? You also say that villain is passive and provide a hand that seems pretty standard that he played and doesn't necessarily indicate passive or aggro.

Maybe you were wrong and he is not passive rather just clicking buttons. And that's fine if you did we all make assumptions about villains that may later prove wrong.

But your main point seems to be this weird fascination with winning pots rather than maximizing EV. In the first quoted response above you say if you had check raised you would have almost certainly won the pot while risking the same amount. Ok but this means you are taking on more risk for less return. If he is bluffing or clicking buttons we want to allow him to continue.

By your logic you would rather risk 100 to win Villain's 35 then risk 100 to win Villains 100 (35+65). Now granted you occasionally fold out a better hand but without any math to support that I think that is just justification for what you want to do. I also think it's a bit optimistic to think villain is going to fold,out many better hands.

That's just the low hanging fruit of logic fail. Would you like me to continue?

I am OK with this hand pre. Getting 25:1 implied odds in a multi-way pot with suited aces is good enough for me.

On this flop, I check/evaluate. I probably fold to the flop bet because there are still two people to act behind. Don't hate a call, but I do hate a x/r. We never are getting called by worse, and while we could get some Ax that beats us to call, I'm not sure how much of that is in V's range given the flat pre and small bet here. This is a pretty classic WA/WB situation.

One of the main reasons I don't like x/r is that it means we can no longer pick off V's bluffs on later streets. If I call this flop, I'm pretty much committing myself to calling down unless V's sizing gets really big or the run out gets bad. Very unlikely V will go for 3 streets of value with an ace with a better kicker so usually even if we're beat we're only paying off one more bet, which is the same that happens when we x/r. However, when we're ahead and we call down we win more.

Basically, the x/r is a defense against being bluffed on later streets, but I think a better defense for that is calling down once we call flop. That way, when we're being bluffed we make more money. If you don't want to call down, just fold flop.

Slim dropping some truth bombs ITT. Well done sir.

It's poor logic because clearly you don't understand the basic concept of betting range is a lot wider than raise calling range.

If you assume V is weaker than your Ax on this board texture, then V is likely down to 2-out or some weird draws with low equity.

Last thing you want is to narrow V's range down to only hands that beat you while allowing him to correctly fold everything worse.

I'm not risking $100 to win his $35. I'm risking $100 to win his $35 plus the $80 already in the pot. So its $100 to win $115. You also dont want to admit that there is merit in making a certain play so that you dont make a bigger mistake later (folding the best hand). I fold the best hand more than most players, but it couldve been avoided this time.

Its very clear that I have a different philosophy than alot of reg posters here. Thats fine, but I dont automatically assume the people I disagree with are wrong. Im not sure why you assume I am wrong. Its not black and white. I do agree with a lot of your points and I did fold but I was very very close to check raising the flop based solely in his bet sizing and you wont be able to convince me that Im wrong about that.

That would be true except that everyone wanted to fold the turn once he bet $65 so we did get bluffed on a later street which is a disaster.

Again, that's true unless we allow him to bluff US on a later street which is what everyone did.

Seriously? Do you not see that slim is comparing EV of check/raising vs check/calling?

What would you do if V calls your flop check/raise? Now the pot is +$130 more vs check/calling, do you not consider that to be a bigger mistake?

It's because you lack the fundamentals to decipher what is right or wrong.

Using your assumption that your weak Ax is ahead on this board texture, it is black and white.

And that's why you're a bad strat poster.

That's the difference between you and every decent posters in this forum.

You are only able to think in terms of winning/losing pots.

Once you realize that you play against Villain ranges rather than specific villain hands the game will make more sense to you. Until then good luck sir

I'm not saying to fold turn. If I call flop, I'm calling this turn bet and almost certainly calling river as well. If I'm going to get bluffed off the best hand, it will be on the flop. I'm not going to put money in the pot in a wa/wb situation only to fold on a blank turn.

Did you at all consider check calling the flop and leading the turn?

Betting to "see where you are at" is a bad reason to bet. You bet either to A) get value from worse, or B) get better to fold.

Seeing as the board is "bone dry" in your words, there are very few hands we can get value from (assuming field players are folding anything below an ace). So it's unrealistic to think we are going to get worse hands to call.

The other option is to get better to fold. Well, donking into the PFR when his range is Ax heavy and we have one of the worse aces possible is lighting $$$ on fire.

Moreover stacks are shallow relative to the overall pot size. We are quickly approaching a commitment threshold.

Tl;dr donking flop no bueno

Lots of good advice in the thread for how to play (and not play) a medium-weak hand on the flop oop multiway.

I can't +1 this comment enough. Hero is oop with 2 players yet to act and a passive button raise. This is an awful spot with top pair **** kicker. Stack protection is massively more important than equity protection.

if you limp/call this pre, cap your range, then c/c multiple streets (or c/r) on an Axx flop then you are going to burn $$. V has it (or gets there) far too often.

that's not to say that limp/calling or any other strat pre is bad and frankly A5s is one of those hands that you can pretty much do anything you want with pre. i prefer raising it, but then again i raise a huge wide range pre and like seeing as many flops as possible with a wide uncapped range. but limp/calling is sometimes ok too. limp/folding or open folding a hand with such great potential in a deep stacked cash game is not great tho imo.

however...once you've decided on your pre action, you must remember how your action defines your range for your opponents.

this hand is really simple. you've capped your range pre and decided to c/c one street on a safe Axx flop. that's fine. then you check the turn and V bets again. V has an uncapped range that includes all Ax. his second barrel is perfectly reasonable and at that point you fold. if he shows you TT then you laugh and say well played and store all that sequence away for future reference where you cleverly let him hang himself.

bluff catching should be reserved for those situations that come up a few times in every session where players represent either a ludicrously narrow range or a hand they cannot possibly have. a good example is where an otherwise aggressive player is on the button and it's checked around and he checks back, and then tries to rep something on later streets.

you have no good reason to cap V range in this spot. you have no reason to bluff catch. but you also have no reason to worry about folding the best hand sometimes. it happens.

Villains never fold Ax here in position to a donk. Why should hero build a bigger pot oop against 3 players? Stacks easily come into play by the river. I'm not taking Ax to the felt.

And why would we turn our hand into a bluff? Should we bluff with missed sc too? No thanks.

Not a bad idea but I think it is an overplay. We would have to squarely put him on draws only for this to be correct.

Sorta disagree. I think hero can check-call the flop and check-fold the turn if a passive button keeps betting. A passive button should check back the turn with most hands hero is ahead of and bets almost all hands in his range that beat hero.

And you wonder why other posters give you ****. This attitude is the nut low.

Excellent post. OP might argue that his reason to cap V range is V betsizing, but based on the info/read provided I'd say it may be more of a hunch than a read.

Nice response, @oldsilver

Lot's of good analysis in this thread. OP, you would do well to stop defending yourself and contemplate it, especially if the best argument you can make is that you trusted your gut and "see, I would have won."

Just a couple of thoughts to add. In EP, it is often enough a mistake to call instead of raise pf that I'd need a good reason to look at calling. It should be the last option. If a hand is too good to fold under the circumstances, then it is usually worth raising.

The key decision point in any hand is on the flop. Most of the cards are out. At this point, you want to decide whether you are ahead and need to bet/call, or call because you're on a draw. Otherwise, get out of the hand. There's a term for players that never fold a potential winning hand: Calling stations.

Finally, it is almost never a good idea to call the flop bet to fold on the turn if it is a blank. That's the Blanche DuBois defense, depending on the kindness of others. It didn't work out well for Blanche and it won't for you, either.

This is not true, certainly from a GTO POV and I believe demonstrably from an exploitative POV.
Many players will fire one bet as the PFR on a dry disconnected board like Q53 or A75 and then give up, especially when the turn is a blank. They are more likely to continue with air when the turn card modifies the strongest hand, and more likely to continue with value when the turn card is a blank. So calling flop to fold turn is a very solid plan versus someone who plays like that, as their range is wide on the flop and tight on the turn.

There are better spots to do this - like two overs + gutter + BDFD. Something that you can easily muck if you get 3bet, but still has enough hand equity + FE to attack the majority of villain's betting range which is mostly weak.

Check/raising a hand like A5s here is unnecessarily moving a hand from our value range to our bluff range and attacking a narrow handful of combos of hands that beat us. The problem is he is rarely folding anything that is ahead of us anyway, so the end result is he folds hands we are ahead of and we extract no additional value (bad) and he continues with hands that are ahead of us that we are drawing very thin/dead against (very bad).

As you can see, a pretty terrible way to play the hand. If you find yourself turning hands like A5s into a bluff here it's likely because you are uncomfortable playing a medium strength hand OOP and think random button clicking is the answer.

As I've said many times now, the solution is either stop playing these weak hands OOP, or become a good hand reader and be willing to call down lighter. The first option is the easy fix that will plug a huge leak in most people's game. The second is more advanced and far more marginal but has a certain + EV in the right place and time.