I fold now. My tiny raise = quest for free cards theory looks wrong. I can't see 9x being good here. I really wish for a flop raise of V3 though.

Check/call on the turn

Just call on the turn, I can't believe people are folding here.

Flop (~40)

9dQh9s

V3 in SB leads out for 10, H elects to make the call, V1 makes the call, and V2 hesitates and raises to 30, V3 thinks for about 30 seconds and then lets it go.

H elects to make the call with K9hh and so does V1

Turn (~140)

9dQh9sJc

Imo one of the worst cards in the deck..K10, 108, Q9, J9, all beat H now. I always highly discount JJ and QQ based on V2s preflop raise size, and flop small size. He would be the type that would have smoothed called the flop if he had the board so locked up with QQ.

Hero is first to act and x, V1 x, and V2 leads out for 75... h has about 400ish behind.


Hero elects to make the call for 75 and so does V1.

River (365~)

9dQh9sJc4s

Essentially a blank river.

H has about 325ish left, V1 has about 200ish behind, and V2 has about 300ish behind.

H is first to act, and....?

I didn’t even realize that we cover V2. So our turn call was even more stack-committing than I thought. I guess at this point we don’t fold. Maybe check and see if V1 would bluff-jam?

People don’t fold to small bets at LLSNL but sometimes they’re overly cautious in checking back. I’d hate to lose value if V2 decides to check back 9x/QJ. Maybe lead $75-100 isn’t bad? If we’ve already decided we are check/calling any bet by V2, and we don’t think V1/V2 is going to bluff this spot, I think I prefer a small lead to a check/call

Or maybe this is just a check/fold if V2 jams.

River is a brick. Normally I would like to check and evaluate in this type of situation but the order of action is wrong. What hero wants to see is what V2 is going to do and how V1 reacts to that. I think the best option here is a lead for $100. Make a suck bet and see what happens. If both V1 and V2 shove over top you can even fold despite the odds. If only one shoves and the other folds then you should call, this is easy if V1 shoves and V2 folds but if V2 shoves it's just a pot odds play.

I like the $100 bet -- mainly for value. If V1 shoves and V2 shoves, I think fold is best (although in game I probably sigh call). If V1 shoves and V2 folds, I think we have to call based on odds and V description.

I think I still just check/evaluate, although I guess I can see reasons for betting small and folding to a raise.

Just the more I think about this hand the more V2's flop raise is insanely strong. When there are already 3 people interested in this flop just no one raises without minimum 9x, ime. So I'm just not really looking to voluntarily put more money into the pot (i.e. by betting) if I don't have to when insane strength is continued to be shown.

GcluelessmultiwaynoobG

This is why I often prefer leading the turn. There you can set your own price and gain information, without becoming pot committed. As played, check and evaluate, probably calling most bets.

The way this hand played out is why we should not be calling preflop. We have a strong hand, we aren’t sure we like it on the turn, we don’t know what to do on the river because we are out of position against both a whale and a player showing extreme strength, AND we’re out of relative position against the whale. We did not need to call preflop in this arrangement.

I still like the spot and think I’d lead river to get value from 5 combos of worse 9x and QJs from V2 and countless worse combos of value from V1. This is still a +EV lead IMO. I would also consider folding to V2 if he jams over the top of the lead (but I probably still call).

About preflop: So let’s say we do somehow get it all in on river and V2 flips over the single combo that beats us that is consistent with his line, which is Q9s. Or maybe we find out the whale V1 beat us by drilling a gutshot on turn. If we are using these very unlikely events as proof that we should have folded preflop isn’t that a bit of results-oriented thinking?

We could invent a situation where we call in the BB with KJs or KTs and flop trips second top kicker and get to the river in a borderline spot. I don’t think the fact we got into a borderline postflop spot is evidence that we should have folded preflop.

I am not just using this as my main evidence. This is just one data point.

My point here is, when we call preflop, what hand are we trying to make? The fact that we are badly out of position against both the whale and the preflop raiser means that we’re going to have a hard time on lots and lots of runouts. (I don’t just mean facing tough decisions in big pots—I also mean we will win the minimum when we do have the best hand.) The pot is protected, so we’re not going to be able to count on a lot of fold equity. And our hand strength to me is not good enough to overcome our positional disadvantage—which is why I would 3bet this hand well before I call with it.

We’re now in a position where we tried to play thinking we’d win money off the whale, and now we are in a spot where we likely have the whale beat but we are still thinking we don’t want to stack off to someone else. Again, to your point, if I had KJs or KTs I would be thinking about 3betting.

Also, here is my reverse ask. What suited kings would you not call with? Would you call them all?

Flop (~40)

9dQh9s

V3 in SB leads out for 10, H elects to make the call, V1 makes the call, and V2 hesitates and raises to 30, V3 thinks for about 30 seconds and then lets it go.

H elects to make the call with K9hh and so does V1

Turn (~140)

9dQh9sJc

Imo one of the worst cards in the deck..K10, 108, Q9, J9, all beat H now. I always highly discount JJ and QQ based on V2s preflop raise size, and flop small size. He would be the type that would have smoothed called the flop if he had the board so locked up with QQ.

Hero is first to act and x, V1 x, and V2 leads out for 75... h has about 400ish behind.


Hero elects to make the call for 75 and so does V1.

River (365~)

9dQh9sJc4s

Essentially a blank river.

H has about 325ish left, V1 has about 200ish behind, and V2 has about 300ish behind.

H is first to act, and after a brief moment of hesitation leads out for 85. Both V1 and V2 fold rather quickly, and H scoops up a decent sized pot.

I decided to lead river because I find that (thanks to reading the forums) that a lot of river raises are nutted and I could be in an easier spot to b/f rather than c/evaluate and be put in a tougher decision.

-----

Honestly I think this hand does a great job showcasing how difficult it is to play OPP. The flop was a great result for my marginal hand and I still was uncomfortable/handcuffed on what I could do. I do think that folding K9 suited pre is a little too nitty but after this hand I could see why some advocate for folding pre. I do think that this is my lowest Kxs that I would play.

In hindsight I think V2s flop raise was to see if he could have gotten more information to see if I or V3 had 9x.

I also think that by leading turn or xr turn would have screamed that I had a 9x and that highlights again the problems of playing OPP

Thanks for all the feedback!

If MP opens 3x, and we have reads he’s capped due to his preflop raise size, and its heads-up to me I’m calling K5s+/K9o+ in BB.

Given other players in the hand I am calling tighter and 3bet squeezing wider in a vacuum. Like KTo is a fold for me 4ways in a vacuum.

Given whale is in the hand I’m 3bet squeezing less and calling a greater proportion of my continue range. Also calling a few hands I’d otherwise fold 4ways like KTo (I want to play pots against the whale not isolate the reg).

Probably K8s+/KTo+ for me in this spot though I could see KTo as being too marginal. I think it’s fine to continue roughly this wide given we’re paying $7 into an eventual pot of $40, so getting a good direct price, and we have good implied EV postflop against whale who is spewing chips.

OOP is difficult to play but whale is spewing chips so it’s really a matter of hitting a pair and getting paid by worse hands like TPNK and second pair of the whale. Obviously with weaker suited kings like K8s we’re playing more for flush value and top pair value on 8-hi flops, and playing K-hi flops more cautiously. MPs 3x raise range is weak enough that he’s not gonna be able to fight us too often when we do flop a good top pair+

OOP makes it tougher to extract value but whale isn’t really a great hand-reader so I think we can get paid often enough to make it valuable. Like when we flop a trips and check-call flop and lead turn multi-way… Whale’s not gonna understand how strong that is.

I would probably call KTs pure and only start to 3! KJs+. Whereas against a bunch of regs I’d 3bet my KTs.

First paragraph: I just re-read the OP. According to the OP's initial read, this sizing actually means he's NOT capped. The read was that 2.5x or smaller is capped but 3x or more is not. That might change things.

Bolded: I agree with this part completely.

Third paragraph: This is the part where I think we disagree. I'm not really happy about widening my calling range in this particular positional arrangement. Our goal is to play more pots against the whale, right? But this positional arrangement is just too bad. Both the preflop raiser and the whale have position on us. And the whale also has relative position on us (assuming we don't take the betting lead ourselves). This to me is actually a spot where I'd still feel OK squeezing wider, unless I had a read that the whale would limp/cold-call our 3bet a significant amount.

There's something I read once when I was first learning that sticks out to me here: in order to win showdowns, you have to have the best hand. You can't have the second-best hand.

To me that applies here since yes, we want to play pots against the whale, but we ALSO have to play against the 2 other people in the pot. We shouldn't just assume that anytime we make a hand that beats the whale, we'll be able to isolate him later. So all the weaknesses of a hand like KTo or K9s are still present when the other two players are contesting the pot. Making a hand that we'd like to take to showdown against the whale, but that we don't want to play against anyone else, isn't worth anything when someone else is trying to extract from the whale too.

* Victory Dance *

Wow, I totally missed that we already had results.

The fact that the whale snap folded to your river lead means you were actually giving him cheap cards to beat you by not raising anywhere, and he just missed. Another problem with such bad position, although he was likely still getting a bad price. You probably got the maximum the way this played out. Nice hand, but yeah, I noticed you said you now see why I don't like the call preflop.