1/3 live

Hero has been at the table for about an hour and covers the table. On a bit of a heater. Has only shown down TT,JJ, and QQ.

V1 UTG $1200 Not entirely sure what to make of him. A week ago we played twice and he was very loose and agro. In one hand he limp called with J7dd after I made it $25 pre over limpers, then after I continued for $65 into $100 and into 3 people on a 2d3d6s board, he reraised to $185 and I jammed KK for $325 total and it held up.

In the seven or so hours we have played together this week, he has tightened up quite significantly. He has been playing loose pre in terms of his vpip, but he's folding to a more lot of my squeezes and showing far less general aggression against the field.

V2 +1 $800 unknown old guy. Seems to be playing fairly tight and has trapped both times that he hit a big hand.

V3 SB $900 Has been playing a lot of hands and flatted my +2 open with K8o in LP. Shown a couple of bluffs.

Assume the rest of the table is somewhat unknown and generally loose passive. No one is 3 betting light or seems particularly good.

OTTH:

v1 and v2 limp, hero looks down at JTcc in the LJ and...

I’d muck this pre from LJ, iso’ing from CO/BTN, HJ is 50/50 and w.e./borderline, complete from SB, and check BB.

Obv Hero probably iso raises so let’s see a flop lol

Belongs in the Nit thread.

25 bucks

folding pre is way too nitty

So others can feel free to chime in on preflop, but I'm going to go ahead and post the flop as well.

As played:

Hero raises to $21, v1, v2, and v3 all call.

Pot: $80

Flop Kc9h6c

V3 donks for $30, v1 and v2 call. Hero?

Might be worth mentioning that another villain already donked into me on a 933r board, I raised with two overs, he folded, I did not show.

How could you fold this pre? This hand is in my UTG open range and I’m raising from any position over any limpers. Even if you go multiway this hand plays great postflop and has wide board coverage allowing you to Cbet many flops.

Raise 6-8x pre IMO

Given stack depth, your particular read on villains, the fact that everyone is interested in the hand, and the significant equity that your combo draw has against everything except the NFD, I’m bombing it to $150 here.

Call with trappy V2 in the mix.

I would overlimp this preflop. Hand plays very well multi-way and stacks are deep where we don't want someone to 3! off the hand if we raise.

I am raising this flop for sure give we have a lot of equity. $200 in there after we call the $30...I think I am making it $130 on top so $160 total.

For me the question is between folding and overlimping. If some people are horrible, I'm cool with seeing a flop. I think we have far too many behind us (3 still in position) and opponents are likely too deep / loose where an isoraise simply isn't going to work. I also think this hand has some RIO issues where we're not even really cool with a juicer raise.

Gbutthat'smeandIsuckatdeepstackG

I probably just take my good odds and call the flop. There is definitely decent money in the pot worth winning and we should have decent equity. However, we're super deep and at least one guy in the hand is a trapper, so getting it in here would be gross. Of course another problem is that our draw can be dominated and we're now drawing to a lot fewer outs than we think (the RIO issue).

Gnotsurewhywe'remakingsuchbigpotswhenwehavesuchsma llhands,imoG

don't fold pre - WE are deep - this hand plays very well in position - and villains make huge mistakes post flop.

I'd make it $20

I'd iso raise a hand this good. IF we flop bad just give it up. You are deep enough to call up to $50 pre if you get squeezed.

We are 300-400 BB’s effective. Limping preflop is ******ed.

Why?

GcluelessNLnoobG

Cuz some people like to win $$$

Because a pot sweetener raise almost has to be better than a limp here.

Do we want to sweeten the pot? This flop action is a perfect example of that (where it's possible all out "outs" have us drawing dead).

GcluelessNLnoobG

What I would argue here is that if we do not want to juice the pot, then we don't want to play the hand at all, and in fact should fold preflop.

If you want to disagree on whether raise > limp > fold, or whether fold > raise > limp, I guess that's OK, but either way, you shouldn't be limping.

Dont agree. The value lost when someone 3! us off our hand is way higher than what we gain from raising in this spot.

Limping creates a much higher SPR pot where we can use our position and the info we gather on all streets much more to our advantage. Thanks to our raise + multiwayness, we've created a lower SPR pot where we won't necessarily have that advantage (if we raise this flop, we're playing for stacks almost immediately, something that can't be said in a limped pot).

And as shorn says above, we don't lose by getting 3bet (or is everyone just calling a 3bet cuz JTsooted?). And maybe inviting someone into the pot is better than blowing them out.

I mean, I'm not totally against it as obviously there are also good reasons to raise too. I'm just not convinced that there's a slamdunk reason to raise, and the deeper we become the less reason there is to raise almost anything.

Gbutthat'sme,andIsuckatdeepstackG

Except we’re never getting raised off our hand. We are more than deep enough to defend a 3bet.

Yah let me know the last time you stacked a guy with a 75-100x SPR.

SPR is one consideration among many many other things. The fact is if you want to play for stacks you need a flop SPR conducive to that. JTs is the kind of hand that can play for stacks 300-400 BB’s deep assuming there is a raise preflop.

Admittedly you have virtually no experience playing deep stack so it’s understandable why you’d nit it up here.

I started tracking what hands people are 3 betting with in these games and needless to say, at least based on my sample of a few sessions, it’s really tight. I’ve seen way more flats with AK and QQ/JJ than I’ve seen 3 bets with a hand worse than JJ. So I think it’s unlikely that there is over a 12% chance we get three bet here with 5 people left to act.

I don’t mind limping and hoping for a cheap flop but is limp calling a huge opening really going to be profitable? Part of the advantage of opening is our range is so much stronger and it helps us with fold equity later on.

Actually I think this becomes much less important when we have deep stacks.

To me, the main advantage of raising is that limping doesn't allow the bets to get big enough to bring people's entire stacks into play--and this exacerbates, not mitigates, the RIO that GG is trying to avoid by limping instead of raising this hand.

Also, to those saying "we must fold to a 3bet", that depends on the raise size, position, and stack size of the person 3betting us. This is deep enough that I would not auto-fold here, as I (probably) would if I were raising this hand with 100bb stacks. And as the post I quoted points out, 3bets are rare at this table.

Preach johnnybuz

Unless I've been doing it completely backwards all of these years, the bolded above is completely backwards thinking. The deeper the stacks, the more hands become profitable because of IO. Not wanting to raise because of RIO is just ludicrous. Sure, occasionally we will lose to flush over flush or some other cooler, but the value we lose by limping along and playing bingo 100 BB poker is massive.

Also, in a regular 8 hour session with everyone (or most) 400+ BB, playing for stacks just doesn't happen all that often. Maybe once or twice tops, maybe none, and I play in some juicy deep stack games.