1/3 MS game.

V: $1600, I chose the table specifically to target him because he was deep stacked and not a regular. Had never played with him before. He seemed fairly aggressive but took down a lot of pots without showdown so it was tough to tell if he was loose or the deck was hitting him in the face.

H: covers, has a pretty aggressive image but V knows I'm a reg because everyone keeps talking to me. Hasn't shown down many hands but betting a lot.

Two hands with V prior to this:
1. V opens for $20, H three bets in position to $65. V folds AJo face up and H shows J7s.
2. Random opens for $20, V three bets in position to $60. H cold calls from SB, random calls. 7 high flop, H checks, random checks, V bets $75, H calls, random folds. Blank on turn, H checks, V bets $75, H calls. Q on river, H checks, V bets $75, H calls and mucks when V shows AA.

OTTH: (skipping preflop because it is not interesting)
Button straddle for $6, SB opens for $20, V calls in BB. H calls with 97dd in MP, CO calls and button calls.

Flop: ($100) 2d3d4d

SB checks, V bets $200.

H?

I don't think hand is strong enough to slow play. V might interpret a raise as a semi-bluff with diamond/SD combo. I make it 600 to go, planning to shove most turns. This might blow V off his hand, but we're about 1/3 to see another diamond by the river, not to mention aces and fives.

If he shoves over our raise are we folding?

Oops. I'll plead guilty to one count of failing to plan the hand.

If he shoves, I think the first order of business will be to throw up a little in our mouth. (Technically, that should be mouths, but that sounds gross.)

Then I think we have to call it. V sounds aggressive and we've previously shown we can bluff raise (J7s hand). Agreed that was pre and for much less so I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, but it's a little something.

If he flopped flush over flush, I don't see how we're getting away from it. He could have a set or 2P and we're calling 1000 to win 2200.

So, huge overbet OTF.

We've flopped a 9 high flush in a 5 way pot. We are mega deep. I'm going to see how this develops a little before (mentally) committing my stack. If another flush card comes and spoils my action - so be it. I call. I've tentatively got him on a naked A draw

Let's do some ranging on the question of GII on flop.

When he 2x pot opens I think his range is solely strong but vulnerable hands. Something like non-nut flushes, straights, sets, two pair, A high draws. Maybe some pair+draw hands like 4x5d.

When he shoves flop over my raise I think he is never drawing dead to a flush so we can eliminate straights from his range. I also don't think people shove two pair in this spot. So I think his shoving range is mostly made flushes and sets, maybe some A high draws. If he shoves all flushes and sets and Ad5x combos I'm a 40/60 dog. If he ever folds his 8 high flushes and A high draws I'm a bigger dog. So I think I can only get myself into a situation where I put $1580 into a $100 pot if I can be reasonably sure that he is shoving a lot of draws on the flop, which I'm not.

Why show the bluff on the 3-bet hand?

On to the played hand: V has AdX, 5dX, or a flopped set or flush pretty much always here (maybe a tidge of 2-pair and non-nut flushes) There are a lot of cards that can kill your action or your hand, so I don't see the value in flatting here. I probably click it back, folding to a re-raise that isn't a shove and evaluating on a shove whether we thought he could semi-bluff in this big pot with just the NF blocker.

If flatted, I'd plan to b/f blank turns, and basically give up on board pairing or flush card turns.

Showed the bluff on the three bet because I wanted him to start playing back at me a bit more. AJ is precisely the hand I don't want him to fold when I three bet, because I want to be able to use my position to get value from trouble hands like that. If he regularly folds those kinda hands to me I think it will be tough to make real money from him.

Interesting. We are super deep with the villain who is the reason we are at the table, we flop a flush and v leads 2x pot into us.

So I'm going to assume he has a hand he's never folding to modest raise. Not getting value additional value from those hands is leaving money on the table. I kind of hate life if he b/3! On us but I want to get more in the pot.

If we click it back he's getting 3.5:1 on a call which is slightly bad odds for his AdXo hands as long as we don't pay him when a 4th flush card hits which we won't.

His 2p and sets will obv call as well. If he jams over a min raise it should be only Ad draws and better flushes s/f. It's a rare v who will jam naked Ad this deep but it sounds like this guy could possibly be one of the rare ones. So I think I like laying him a price that doesn't put him in a raise/fold mind set as I'm probably not calling it off without a sick soul read that won't translate to a forum post... So

I Click it back.

I suck at deepstack, so I probably wouldn't target an unknown and sit deep myself because of this.

Preflop is meh, imo. I'm guessing a couple of the keys to winning deepstack is position and a non-RIO nutmaking hand, and we have neither.

On the flop the SPR is a large 16ish. We have a flush, but it is far from the nuts (in fact, there are very few worse flushes). We're up against a guy that from the HHs looks to just be ABC non out-of-line as far as I can tell.

The huge donk into the world is a bit concerning. If we call, the pot will be $500 with us having $1100 left, so he can easily make us play for stacks by the river. His HHs don't suggest spewtardedness. My guess is that he has a good made hand, so set+. If we raise to commit now, how comfortable are we getting in 530bbs with far from the nuts against this guy? I'm guessing not too comfortable, or perhaps that is just me and the fact I suck at deepstack. I probably just call and see what develops on the turn and make my commitment decision then; I'm fully aware that half the deck is a scare card, but for these stacks I'm less concerned about that than I am getting in hugenormous stacks with the worst of it.

For me, preflop really shouldn't be glossed over. We've flopped the absolute best we can flop, and yet are still in a gross spot.

ETA: Is it just me, or is everyone giving him far too big a range here? This guy just 2x PSB on a made straight / flush board from EP into 3 opponents who have yet to act. Is this the bet size Axdd typically comes up with (Q: is this what your bet size with it would be here, or am I projecting too much?). This guy has actually shown he's fairly cautious (folding AJ preflop, 3 very small value bets with AA postflop). Does he even play two pair or possibly even a set or a straight this way on this monotone board, launching this much money into the pot without having a clue how much the 3 opponents behind him like this flop? Things are obviously different if he's been overbombing the flop multiway and showing lol hands (or perhaps even not showing), but there is no HH indicating that.

GimoG

I agree with much of what GG said. I don't really think that pre is much of a concern because I expect we'll be able to minimize RIO with a skill and position advantage. However this is the first time that we've seen him overbet like this so we can assume he has a good made hand. I do think a straight does this, especially if that straight has a gutshot straight flush draw.

So because I'm not comfortable GII on flop but I am comfortable folding to a big bet if a diamond comes, I call flop bet.

Turn ($500): 2d3d4d 6s

V bets $300

Are we calling again? Bet is far more reasonable given pot size and turn changes nothing for our hand.

No offense, but why are you offering advice if you "suck at deepstack"? 97dd is a phenomenal hand to play deep. Hero can win serious $$ from flopping monsters (such as this hand) as well as applying pressure on opponents who are fit/fold. This would only be a fold if the pre-flop raiser was short-stacked or if the CO and button were shorties and would likely shove on any flop they connect with making it hard for us to have any fold equity post flop.

I don't think this spot is that "gross". We have position on the guy. We can almost discount the A high flush from V's hand just due to bet sizing. His betsizing screams of betting for protection. I can easily see V doing this with an overpair like 77-TT. Straights, Two-pair and sets are more likely, as well as the lone Ad.

based on my experience we flat the $200, V will play his hand face up. I think he will check back all turns that do not improve his hand. If he has a set, I think he will fire something lol small like $200 into $500 or something, whereas if he does have us beat he will lead huge on the turn like $500 or more.

Raise. You're ahead. Why would V overbet the flop and then all of the sudden make a halfpot bet? V doesn't know where he is at (likely has a straight or a set) and is praying you are on a flush draw.

Anyone is allowed to make HHs comment; I simply preface my deepstack comments appropriately because I feel I have a lot lot lot less of a handle on it than I do shorter stacked (I almost never get into deepstack situations like this at my 100bb BI 1/3 NL game, so very little experience with these spots).

You think this guy is betting 2x the pot on this board with an overpair? The AA hand (where his bets are "almost" lol small, plus HU, plus board that couldn't be remotely as ******ed as this one) suggest otherwise.

Q to everyone: what is your bet size with Axdd here? 1/2 PSB or so, seeing if it takes it down, otherwise giving us good odds if someone continues? Or 2x? Again, I don't see Axdd nearly as much as everyone else does, but I could be guilty of projecting my style onto my opponents.

He's continuing betting on this turn with two pair / set? When he could have already been beat on the flop, a draw got there on the turn, and he'd much rather check/call with these hands than face a raise where he doesn't have odds to continue? On the turn, I would pretty much narrow his range to straights and flushes, and we don't beat many flushes. I'd seriously consider folding the turn. But if I'm guilty of one thing, it's probably definitely folding too much.

GcluelessdeepstacknoobG

Love, love, love this card. Let's reevaluate the potential hands we had him on;

Naked A OTF overbet was to take it down uncontested without having to hit... so - perhaps this is him not wanting to wave the white flag and trying to set his own price for a last gasp draw.

Set. OTF makes some sense as he tries to protect/get value all at once.... our call must have left him quite worried and he's not quite sure if he's ahead or not. Hence the 'in-between' bet.

Made straight. Same as set essentially (although now more likely that he's ahead of our set).

Made (non-nut) flush. hmmmm. I think with any made flush - he's getting it in now. For me - this bet removes that hand.

Bottom line = we're ahead (barring some tiny chance of a T8 kind of hand). Bombs away. Nothing noted above is folding.

Interesting, I never thought about it that way but you might be right, this might be more a line a made flush takes.

Then again, he might be just as MUBSy as I am and a little worried his T high flush ain't good anymore when we just took 2x to the face.

GnotsureG

He bet 2x the pot on the flop. Nobody with a flopped flush would take such a strong line and try to discourage action.

If he had a hand that beat us (a complete and total monter), why would he fastplay the flop and bet 2x the pot all of the sudden to bet 1/2 pot on the turn? If he was fastplaying, he would follow up on the turn with a monster bet; $500 minimum.

Hero should trust his read. He's never seen this guy before and pegs him for a fish. This guy is OOP, likely to be inexperienced, and probably has no idea how to continue with a set or a straight. He bets 300 into 500 because he thinks he might be ahead with a flopped set/straight but recognizes that he doesn't hold the nuts.

People play face up in big pots.

Hero is ahead here and needs to raise for value.

A non nut flush doesn't overbet the pot on this flop in this big and multiway pot? In almost any 1/3 NL game I've played in, I'm pretty I would argue this play as being "standard".

Gstandard,imoG



Maybe we're reading the OP differently, but even though we sat down at this table cuz this guy is unknown and deep, nothing in the HHs suggest we now feel this guy is a fish / inexperienced. It seems we think he is a little aggro but we're unsure whether he's getting hit in the face with the deck or not.

Also, since my game very rarely plays deep, you will often see a lotta lol betsizing when pots become crazy big. This guy just bet $300 on the turn. That's (a) a reasonable bet given the pot size and (b) a fricken huge bet for 1/3 NL (although it might not be considered one if your game plays deep all the time) and he just made it on a 3-to-a-flush/4-to-a-straight board.

Gfishdon'tfoldAJopreflopG

Fold flop?

We can debate the flop here. I'm not sure what the best course of action is.
But the turn card looks just amazing to me.
5dXx thinks they just hit gin against a lot of our range. They just got ahead of a flopped set, and are now chopping with flopped straights.

I'd prolly just mini-tank and cram it in.

The fact that he opened AJo UTG tells me his more aggressive than a loose passive. Folding AJo OOP to a 3bet does not make this guy good. Only the bottom 5% of the player pool would call there.

It sounds like you play in passive games. But there are games around the country where you see "aggro fish". Theyre not maniacs. And sometimes they play well. But they are predicatble because they are always trying to win every pot, especially the big pots. It means he can fire off bets without the stone cold nuts, which applies to the situation hero finds himself in. These guys don't flop monsters (sets and straights) and just twiddle their thumbs and check/call hoping nobody makes a bet over 50 dollars.

Also, deep stacks games are aggro. They don't play like 100bb games. The aggressiveness of the games makes everyone play a bit looser and everyone's range is wide. Dudes are not sitting around with $1500 stacks playing a range of TT+ AK preflop.

GTO play would be a call here.However this is going to be completely explo vs this villain.How deep are the other players in the hand?pointless discussing the hand without this info

Sorry, I neglected to follow up on other V's. All others folded on flop. I don't recall exact stacks but they all had $500-$800.

Call me a nit but I'd probably just fold the flop. V just 2x potted the wettest flop in the world into the entire field and given the AA hand before and AJ fold, you haven't seen him do anything crazy yet. Let's assume V's range is all reasonable flushes (removing hands like J6dd/Q6dd), 22-44, A5s, 56s. You have 40% vs that range on the flop. If you add the unreasonable flushes you have 35%. An overpair making a huge overbet like that does not seem correct given how V played the AA hand unless V has exactly AdAx and then he probably slows down more on that turn card too.

Are we calling if V bets $500+ on river? Yeah you flopped a flush and should be good sometimes, but it's not a slam dunk and V hasn't shown himself to be a massive whale that will do this with random bluffs/semi-bluffs/worse value hands yet. I think the whole thing is pretty marginal when he 2x pots that specific flop in a 5-way pot with people behind him yet to act.

Hero is ahead of what? What's V's range in this spot on this flop? When perceived rec "fishy" players 2x any pot they usually have the nuts and that's why they are easy to play against because they don't know how to balance their sizing. V needs to prove he's a bit of a maniac for hero to be ahead of his range here.