1/3 NL

V1-V3 are all weak/passive with stacks around $200
V4 is a LAG, that's been running bad and has raised the flop and lost several pots in the last hour. Stack $90
V5 is unknown and irrelevant.
V6 is a LAG (on the Button) with about $250
Hero is in BB with 4c4s, $650.

V1-V5 limp, V6 (LAG) raises to $10, SB folds. Hero?

I know a PAHWM stops at all action points, but this is so clearly a call, as it is likely that everyone else will too, so ...

Hero calls, as does the table.

Pot $65
Flop: Kh 6s 4d

I look around and see V4 (losing LAG) showing interest.

Hero?

I probably lead for 35, so that a raise from V4 will reopen the betting (and so that it doesn’t get checked around).

Live reads mean nothing to me. I go for the x-r.

I'm checking. Super safe board and hopefully someone hit the K. Calling whatever bet, after a little tanking.

I do this based upon the descriptions of the players. Bottom set is awesome in your spot.

$35 (1/2 PSB) seems like a stiff lead. Are you trying to knock out the limpers?

I tend to like to drive the betting action in these spots. I dislike x/r because it increases fold equity against a K. I don’t like x/c because it will force us to take an aggressive action on a later street to get stacks in. Stack sizes are shallow. We can just go b/b/b and get stacks in easily.

Another point: Most Vs will check in flow to the BTN opener. It is highly likely that BTN checks back.

To ensure some money goes in on the flop I like a bet. We should keep it small to give weaker hands a chance to catch up. I like $15-20.

Check. A bet on the flop from the BB with the pfr and 5 other people to act on such a dry board shows too much strength. If it checks around, you weren't going to get 3 streets of action anyway.

Given this table dynamic, I'm not worried about having a balanced donking range. We also have the tilted shorty in the mix, as well as a pre-flop raise of 3.3X over numerous limpers???
Can't really count on a cbet.

$30/call (obv.)

Is your read that V4 is going to bet? Is V6 bad enough to c-bet air if it checks around to him? If you can be pretty sure somebody is going to bet this then check and plan to call. If V6 has more sense in big pots and is likely to check then leading for $35 is fine also.

SPR is small and hero should be angling to stack somebody here. But it's also such a dry flop that you might have some trouble getting anybody else interested in putting stacks in. You don't want the flop to check around because then you will need to bet too much on turn and river. At the same time it's better for you if somebody else makes the first move rather then you having to donk into such a crowd. On the flop your balancing those two conflicting motivations.

Check. Chances that someone hit a good K with hands like KJ/KQ or that the preflopraiser have something to bet is pretty good.

Depending on the action i will decide if i will raise the flop or just call. Who bets (and how much) plus if there is any callers yada yada.

If we decide to lead out otf, after the whole table called a small pfr and the short stack who raised is showing he likes his hand, we probably have a much better opportunity to grow a pot and commit more players than c/r'ing. A hp bet isn't gonna "knock out the limpers" they already called pre. A c/r has a better chance of knocking people out than a reasonable hp bet.

This sums up a lot of my thinking about the sizing. $35 isn't really that big to me. Anyone who has Kx and is thinking of calling will call $35 just as often as $20 or $25.

The difference is what other hands we do or don't want to call. With this many players in the pot, if one player has Kx and is drawing almost dead against my hand, I don't need someone taking a cheap card with a hand like 87 or 85 and potentially getting in the way of a big win. So I want to bet enough that those hands should be folding (and also enough so that if 75 or 53 wants to play, they'll pay for it). I admit it's possible to go smaller than $35 and accomplish the same thing; we could go $25 and the same would hold. But why not get the most value out of the hands I'm looking to get stacks in against? $35 sets me up to keep betting small relative to the pot and get my stack in on the river.

Agree that 30-35 will set us up for 1/2 pot bets on turn and river, and we can get stacks in more easily..
If we bet 15-20, though, we’ll probably get looked up by any King and any 6, and maybe by Ax suited with a BDFD. If two players call a bet of 15, the same amount of money goes in on the flop as if 1 player calls a bet of 30. That random 6x might improve to two pair or trips on the turn.
Small leads are often interpreted (rightly so) as draws, so we might even see a raise from Kx (which I would respond to by calling flop, and then continuing to lead turn).
Furthermore, and this is the least relevant point (maybe not worth mentioning), GTO thinking says that we should often favor small bets (1/3-1/4 pot) with our entire range when OOP and in multi-way spots.

I'm typically not super pumped about being the first caller to setmine, especially OOP. However, a raise to lol $10 after 5 limps with us calling guarantees a 7way pot in any 1/3 NL game I've played in (with the single exception of facing a limp/reraise). We do have some RIO due to OOP / smallness of pair, but thanks to being in the BB we'll already be getting the immediate odds to setmine. So even though things aren't completely perfect, still an easy setmine for me.

SPR is about ~4, which means if worse came to absolute worse (i.e. the flop checks thru) we could still play for stacks with two PSBs. Board isn't very drawy. So with these two things in mind, I don't think we absolutely need to donk into the world. So I'm cool with a check, probably mostly to call (hoping for overcalls) with a plan of then donking the turn. I also don't hate a small 1/3 PSB to get the ball rolling either.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Check and bet are both good, which is better is gonna depend on gameflow, player dynamics etc.
In a vacuum I probably vote for a small bet, to get value from kings, sixes and open enders. Going small because it looks like a probe and might act as red rag to a bull to one of the two 'LAGs' in the lineup.

So bet 20

bet $15-$20

with so many players check around is possible

lets start to build

Well, the majority seem to like a lead between $15, to $35 because of the size of the field and to set up an SPR of 1-2 and 1/2 PSB on the turn and river with the goal of playing for stacks. While I did bet, this wasn't my exact thinking and I appreciate the explanations that were provided.

As to those that said to c/c, or c/r. This is a standard line for a set that most everyone knows and one that I've used many times with good results. I wanted something different.

So, what I wanted was a bet big enough to build a pot and look weak, in hopes of getting raised, so I could 3-bet. I was sure V1-V3 would call, or fold. V4 (the short stack with $80 left) limited the bet size to $40, but I thought that would be way too much. On the other hand, with most stacks in the $200 range, I also wanted it to be an easy call.

I'll also add that I've used small bets in spots like this with an OESD, or NFD when the entire field was passive and I was IP, again to build a pot. That's not the case here, but I've played with V6 enough that he may have noticed it ... not sure.

Even though I had started my flop plan before the flop, I was running out of time. I didn't want much of a delay before acting (like 10-15 seconds max).

Anyway, I bet $15. In the future, I'll size it up a bit, probably to $20-$25. If the table has been calling larger flop bets, I'll go the $30-$35 size.

OTTH

Hero bets $15
V1-V3 calls
V4 shoves for $80 ($65 more)
V5 folds
V6 tanks briefly and calls $80.

Pot $285
Stacks:
V1-V3 ~$175
V4 Allin
V6 $160
Hero covers (and yes I was aware of all the stack sizes)

Hero?

The bet is a snap jam but why do you wanna build a pot and bet small when you have a draw? You should be thinking about folding people out and if you have any FE and what the range is of your opponent. When we have draws we don't want people to call we want them to fold.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

The thing with x-r flop, even though it expresses a lot of strength, people still won't adjust. You say you've done it in the past with good results but wanted something different...I think a lot of people try to over complicate LLSNL when it doesn't need to be.

As played you really can't go wrong here. I'm never in this spot, but I would just call to try and get the other villains to come along, and the only turn we really don't want to see is an A.

It's a different topic from the thread, but it exploits the calling stations by getting them to give me great odds when they call. Under different conditions, I will raise a draw, as you suggested. As to why, two reasons: there are 2-3 observant/highly skilled players I play with regularly and it's good practice to mix things up.

Stacks are going in at this point with less than a PSB to go. The only question now is how to get as many stacks as possible in the pot. If the board was wetter, I'd just jam. This dry, I'd call.

see bolded
this is where most fail to consider with bet sizing

I would call to invite all the fishies

I am guessing since this is a PAHWM that you called, meaning (in my opinion) the real butchering of the hand starts here.

With V4’s raise and V6’s cold call, this is a big pot already. Jamming is clearly +EV and gives us the biggest chance to win this big pot.

But a lot of people want to just call and hope that V1-V3 pad the pot even more for us.

This does not seem like a good idea to me, and here’s why.

We have five players who have shown interest in the pot on this flop. So the argument that “this is a dry board” no longer holds water. Three of our opponents at most can have Kx, and only V6 can have AA. So what’s left? 6x and straight draws. With the bets getting big, 6x may not call even if we invite them in for $65 more. That leaves gutshots, plus two open-enders: 75 and 53. If one of the three Villains who called $15 has one of these, and we let them call $65 into a pot of $350, with the promise of getting our stack in on the turn, this is a disaster for us. Their call is +EV and we are going to be the source of that EV.

With the pot this big already, it’s time to jam.

It’s likely that V1-V3 will fold to the action. V4 is all-in. V6 has 160 behind. Our goal is to get the rest of V6’s chips. If we reraise now, V6 can easily fold Kx (which looks to be his most likely holding). I’d rather just call flop (with the expectation that V1-V3 will fold), and then lead turn small, then plan to bet river small for all-in. We can go 1/4 on turn and 1/4 on river, and get the rest of our chips in.