Villain has been fairly quiet so far, mostly folding pre, usually entering for a raise if he does play. Seems competent, covers hero with like 1.5k

Hero is one of the more active players at the table, which means he is raising ~15% of hands pre. Has shown down only winners. 1.2k, one hour at the table, minimal reads

Prefolp: One limper, hero opens to $25 in LP, villain reraises to $90, folds back to hero who...

What position is V? $220

Aim for a low SPR and 4bet to north of $200. Please tell me this PAHWM doesn't end in AA vs. KK.

If OOP I 4-bet to $250 and fold to a shove

If in position I would sometimes 4-bet/fold (probably a little smaller) and sometimes flat.

Folding to a shove would be bad if you are even capable of 4b AK/QQ/JJ/air. Like real bad. If he has AA just give him the money. V isn't a 90 year old guy that hasn't played a hand in 4 hours.

How many times have you seen someone five bet shove a hand other than aces in live poker? Not sure I ever have.

Especially when there is only one other combo of KK out there vs. 6 of AA and villain made a strong value oriented raise from $25 to $90 with no additional callers to squeeze OP.

This depends on our position. OOP I probably 4!/fold and IP I'll flat and see what he does on the flop.

A lot, done it myself many times, usually with AK because there's a chance the other person will fold JJ/QQ and apparently KK....and some V's will randomly cold 4bet with garbage. If V is wiz kid "zomg gotta 3b light" is a little different than when an old guy that plays a hand every few hours does it.

Sounds like the consensus is 4bet to 220ish and either get it in or fold to a 5bet. When he 3bet me I put his range at:
AK, QQ+, 25-50% JJ/AQ, then 10% randomness. This deep I think a 4bet gets continues from QQ+, AK, which I obviously have an edge against, but QQ is unlikely to put all the money in pre 250bb deep, while AK might. So I decided to flat to keep in the weaker part of his range.

Flop: 5:h: T:c: Q:s: ($185)
Hero checks, villain bets $150, hero....

My thoughts

The above argues in favor of a 4!. You're a 56% favorite against his 4! calling range. You happily gii if villain shoves with AK/KK/AA with about 47% equity.

The flop becomes easy when you 4!. The SPR will be ~2. You can safely bet and gii. You have 40% equity against QQ+/AK.

I can understand calling the 3! if you have position. You need to 4! oop to make postflop easier.

Can only c/c now.

Agree with the re-raise pre to 240. When V makes it 90, and since you're seemingly active at this table, it really looks like AK. Plus we're oop.

4betting to make postflop easier doesn't make any sense to me. I'm the best player at the table, I'm not worried about getting outplayed. If I 4bet I get jammed on, I have to call but I'm getting all my money in as a dog with KK. If I 4bet and get called, I've strengthened his range from 38% equity to 43% equity and he will no longer go broke with QQ on a J high flop.

I'm not looking to make the hand as easy as possible, I'm trying to win the most money. I also strengthen my OOP flatting range which is a decent bonus.


Only got one answer for the previous street, but seems like there isn't a lot of interest there so I'll move to the biggest decision point, in my opinion.


Flop: 5 T Q ($185)
Hero checks, villain bets $150, hero....

Hero flats
Turn: Q ($485)
Hero checks, villain bets $250, hero...

Fold OTT ..

We are never clearly ahead of his range in this spot.

Pre:
I like pre a bit more than the other posters, so I don`t want to argue about that.

Flop:
If Villain is a really tight 3better .. I may find a fold here. It`s super nitty, but we won`t feel comfortable on this board like ever and we basically call in the hope of a turn and river check behind.

Turn:
Fold .. It`s too marginal to keep calling, if we don`t know him as a spewy villain that will overplay AK/AJ in this spot

^^^ you cannot fold turn. Prob can't fold riv when taking this line.

Back to PF, man, this deep you gotta auto 4b OOP for value not matter who he is. If this guy has 3bs with 68dd type hands, you gotta tax him hard to even consider calling IP (small 4b this deep only further incentivize a call) If he is tighter and has some 3bs with linear stuff like TT+/AQs+ then 4b for value as well and post flop play will be straightforward.

If he's tight and he 5b shoves (a gross overbet at 300bb) then you'll have to decide whether or not he is capable of 5b bluffing OR poor enough to think he is 5b shoving QQ for value.

My personal calling threshold for KK PF is around 200bb or so without history/levels/stone cold read.

Usually making the hand easy helps win the most money (and lose the least). I don't know why you want a strong oop flatting range. Raising and creating a small SPR negates your positional disadvantage. It's harder to win the maximum when you're oop, even if you theoretically have slightly greater equity against his range. I think you're vastly underestimating the value of position.

Why can`t we fold OTT with this line? We obviously would not be folding on 2267 rainbow .. But calling pre is not only to disguise our hand. It`s as well to be able to get away from KK if we feel beat. No shame in that at all. Playing KK OOP deep vs a good opponent is tough in general.

I agree that 4betting preflop is the best play. But playing KK passively here is good as well, it just doesn`t work on this specific board.

Let´s say OP did 4bet to 240$ and gets called by villain .. How is he supposed to play this hand on this flop and turn? I think it`s b/f flop and c/f turn .. So we just lose more money with that linen (if villain bets turn as well) and gain nothing on this particular runout.

I saw it the other night: V1 (250bb) raised, V2 (250bb) 3bet, V3 shoved for 75bb, V1 shoved, V2 tank folded. V3 scooped with A5, and V1 flashed the 2d!

Interesting hand. I think you can make an argument (as many did) for four betting your KK. I think it's a fine way to play the hand, but I think that flatting (even out of position) is fine too. It gives us much more maneuverability with our kings and allows us to get away a little easier when beaten and we can always build a pot with a check raise if we feel that we are well ahead.

The flop c/c I think is very standard, nothing really to add.

The turn is interesting. When taking the line that villain has I think he pretty much never has pure air. The bluffiest hand we're looking at is AK, which has the inside straight draw, but I think that most of the time a good player would check back on the turn because he'd have to be concerned that you had a queen and if he spikes his jack he could win a huge pot on the river. Plus he's in position, so if you check the river if a blank falls he could safely bluff confident that you don't have a queen. So checking gives him much better options. I think JJ checks the turn most of the time as well, though I would still give villain a small chance of having this holding (maybe like twenty percent). Thus I'm discounting AK and JJ. So that leaves us with his value range, which is super strong: AA,KK,QQ,TT,AQ. We are now woefully behind everything except the KK (one combination) which we're chopping with. There is also now only one combination of QQ, so it's obviously less likely he has this holding. I think we're looking at AA or AQ here most of the time. We played the hand this way so we had options. I think we find a fold here.

Part of my thinking on the turn: Does villain bet AA here? In my experience, a lot of regulars at 2/5 check back AA here, some will value bet river but plenty will check back river as well. If villain is rarely value betting AA here, what is his value? AQ, TT, both of which are very discounted pre.

The flop c/c makes sense. You're ahead of AK/AQ/KQ and JJ/99-. The flop isn't great, but isn't a disaster by any means. Raising folds out all worse hands and only better continues.

The turn card is a disaster. It shifts all Qx into the loss column. All AK and JJ- should check back for a showdown. His turn bet almost certainly means your beat and will have to call another big bet on the river to see a showdown. Fold.

Agree with this. Can't imagine he's betting this turn w/o a hand that beats KK. He's after value. If you do call here, you need to call most rivers because if you think you are ahead now (only reason for calling) you will be in the same spot on the river (unless an A falls).

Gonna let this go for a bit more, since people seem split between "You must call here" and "You must fold here"

Do you have any reads if this guy will bet the river w/ worse than KK (assuming a blank river)?

He has played so few hands in the hour or so I've been at the table that my reads are super limited. He seems competent and tight. I actually don't expect him to bet the turn super often with hands worse than a Q, I wouldn't expect him to bet river for value with anything worse than a Q.

OK, I fold turn. (And 4bet/fold pre.)