Minatorr, you are aware that this is lol liveaments, yes?

My bad. Will try to keep that in mind lol. Been around midstakes, small stakes, and 100NLz for quite some time.

Yeah, Mina, you basically cannot underestimate someone's raising and limping range, esp if "tight" really Just means 60 hands of mostly trash (totally normal and most of 2 hours of play).

Further their postflop play is going to be more/less sticky based on live tells and the story a hero tells w his cards


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It's funny, I was reading Minatorr's responses and kept thinking they were well-thought out and made sense, but something wasn't jiving with typical LLSNL games/opponents.

I should note that this was my first 3-bet at the table. I had only recently chipped up from a couple pots where I flopped top 2-pair and got shoved on by worse on the flop.

Minatorr, knowing we are 41:59 vs V's flop stack off range doesn't necessarily mean we are unhappy stacking off. There will be ton of dead money in before V lets us know he is gii. You have to do an equity vs pot odds calculation and use the resulting expected value to determine if it is a call or fold vs a shove.

On subject of disguising our hand: you are right some V's will expect us to cbet a broad range on the flop including dtaws. But they still expect us to bet our top pair+. If we check flop we'll be perceived as capped and struggle to find any fold equity the 50% of times we don't make a straight or flush. We are betting to disguise our draw against these perceptive villains but in a different way to how wd disguise it against a passive player who thinks check = draw and bet = hand. We are also starting a disguise for when we hit our draw even against the perceptive player.

If we know perceptive V is liable to think we barrel our FDs and keep going when we hit then we can disguise our hand by checking back on the flush if we turn it. This might induce action from V in front of us on river, either turning a weak hand into a bluff or thin value betting a medium strength hand. Alternatively we're in position so if V checks river in front of us we can bet whatever we think gets the most out of him. Betting to induce, bet middling to get called by his mid strength or shove to look like a bluff and induce a hero call.

We keep all our options on the table if we bet the flop. That's all our options whichever way the hand goes: 50% miss, 50% hit.

I kinda wanna pot the flop.
Does that make me a spew tard?

Pot flop gets more folds for sure, it maybe inhibits V raising us as much too. Downside is it is more expensive to draw. Another upside is it disguises our draw better and gets more chips in early while defining V as strong if he calls. Then if we make our draw we can stop-and-go with greater clarity on V's range and greater chance of getting paid.

Just curious, what is your guys' checking range on this flop? Do you not have any strong hands or strong draws in it? E.g. AQ with Q hearts, KQhh.

And checking turn if the flush hits when we have the 9 high flush is not good, Rage. Any heart kills our hand OTR, and if the board pairs we lose a lot of value as well.

TBH this is kind of why I did not want to 3-bet preflop. Most of our big flops are big draws, and will have some ROI and we are almost never dominating any hands - simply have good equity vs almost all hands. If V has a hand like KhQh we're obviously in a hole, but otherwise, we have almost good enough equity where I think we need to c-bet flop and jam over any x/r especially since V is described as someone who will make moves on flops and has already successfully x/r'd hero.


I think if we flat preflop this hand becomes a little more comfortable to play post-flop when we are deepish.

edit: regarding a checking-range; i typically don't have much of a checking-range when I 3! and am heads up... I'm not sure being balanced in a $1/2 or $1/3 game is so important here. This position is especially tricky if we had KK/QQ here though and I may end up checking those back and maybe sometimes top set on a dry board but that's about it... so not much balancing... but seems ok in $1/2 or $1/3 live games

When I 3bet and go heads up, absent a live tell (of which there are many), I don't really have a checking range on this board.

If I thought he was dead to rights (top set), or the flop smoked some of his range and more importantly, missed my perceived range (678sss and I have two high cards), I'd check. On this board where we can comfortably rep an A, and a surprising amount of his range is crushed by that (I'm adding trouble hands into his pre range, and possibly some <JT-SC, to go w all PPs), im betting when checked to. If we get called and miss turn, we can take free river or Bomb Turn, V depending.




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This never happened. I double-barrelled oop.

I don't mind a CR, cuz our equity is hot. If it's not a worry, give him a bet. Then we'll see the turn (without hist, I tend to take the free card ott)


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Continued

Hero has been at table for a little under an hour following a table change. Hero noticed mucho action at table while playing next door.

V1 ($650) UTG+1 - MAWG/haggard looking competitive rec/reg. more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people. Just sat down at table.

V2 ($1K+) UTG+2 - late 20s, early 30s WG. tighter than most. former dealer, seemingly solid.

Hero ($700) MP - 30s WG, taggy, haven't gotten out of line. Did double barrel V1 at previous table. He turn raised and I folded. Came to table with $350 and doubled up calling a flop all in raise vs my top 2 pair.

OTTH

fold, V1 raises to 12, V2 calls, hero looks down at 79

There is a $1K plus stack left to act on my direct left and one in the blinds.

Hero 3-bets to $48. folds to V1 (UTG+1) who calls, utg+2 folds.

Flop ($110ish) A108x

V1 checks. Should be noted he has been known to check-raise.

Hero bets $80, stares at flop/pot (usual). V1 calls in a normal amount of time.

Turn ($270) 5

Not the true gin card a 6x would have been, but pretty !

V1 checks, Hero?

I go about $160 to set up for a trivial river push. If raised, I'll GII OTT due to villain description.

If called and river is checked I'm jamming any non-, xb , flat calling a river donk unless it's a .

Think it's a little spewy to be betting a high frequency on this board with almost our entire range when this flop hits UTG + 1's 3-bet calling range extremely hard.

Bet turn 2/3 pot and bet large on river (2/3-3/4).

whoops sorry misread the OP

what do we think Villain is CRing here that we would want to GII without thought?

Let's say we make it $160 and villain shoves, there's $1,052 in the pot and we have like $360 to call, so we need 25%.

I think when our read is villain is "more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people", then it's a call.

I don't really know what his range is TBH but I don't like to exclude everything except flushes. He could have sets, he could have AK (especially K), maybe ATss and presumably some bluffs...I don't know. I wouldn't play any of those hands like this but then I take pretty standard lines so whatever. Also, I don't think he has a huge number of flush combos in his range with the A out there.

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You realise I'm aware that checking turn with a medium flush is not without risks right?

Yes, if a 4th flush card comes on river it's bad but it isn't happening everytime. Against a perceptive opponents it can be profitable to take deceptive lines on wet boards. Risk vs reward. Either it I'd worth it or if isn't. I'd make the judgment in game. You want a hard and fast rule of how to play this hand? Well tough luck, there is no set way. It all depends on V's tendencies.

You also contradict yourself, you want to check some mid strength and strong hands on a wet flop but you don't ever want to check a strong hand on a wet turn. Checking flop or turn with any type of han may be the best play depending on the villain.

Agree with this. Against some villain's I could bet/fold the turn but my interpretation of this V is he's goin to have semibluffs and weirdly played sets/2pair/top pair as well as flushes in his turn x/r range.

Depends on V. I believe this guy can get tricky so I may decide I need to get tricky too. But I may decide it's best to play really ABC aginst him if he's getting weird creative a lot otherwise I end up having no clue where I'm at if I've been deceptive and V is then being deceptive vs my perceived range.

Basically if I know how V will respond to a deceptive line from me then I will more likely do it. If I don't know how hd responds I jus play pretty straightforward. That's why I'm saying if V is perceptive and will see I have a lot of flushes when I bet the flushing turn I may check for deception - I know, in that scenario, he'll rule out flushes.

If V were a nit I'd be checking a lot back on this flop because I'd know nit can't continue without a good AX or better and won't bluff turn after I check flop.

I don't have set range of strong hands to check flop. Closest I'd be to routinely checking bck flop would be top set like maaask suggests.

So my flop checking range is going to mostly consist of air (KXs no hearts, SC that missed) and weaker hands and draws: weak AX intending to call later or bet turn if checked to, some bare straight draws, the smallest FDs and a handful of NFDs.

Yes, but you discount just how much of his range misses this, paired w that he will likely fold any single pair hand <AJ--of which there are a lot.
Enough that I think it has >30% FE on the flop. Vs many villains it's greater than 50.

Basically he has to have what we are repping to continue, and bc this is live, his range contains ALOT more than that.


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Potting the flop is fine for value, imo, and it was my first inclination as well. But my guess is that we really want this villain to spazz since he is capable of it, but against a PSB my guess is that he'll spazz less, so that when he does check/raise (for pretty much a stack committing bet at that point) he'll end up with a much stronger range of hands we end up shoving into.

GimoG