I fold KJ sooted all day from here. $20 from the blinds four ways? There are very few of us good enough to not have this call be meaningfully -EV.

If V opens for four times I'm probably still folding pre with Q10 suited OOP.

Because you're assuming that if you hit you will get stacks in. V's are willing to pay off 50-100 BB with non-nut hands, especially when the pot is so big preflop anyway. V's aren't shipping 800 to your flush with an overpair or top two. Your description of V1 describes a guy who is folding once you hit a hand here before you get any equity, and V2 sounds like he can think enough to not stack off 250 BB with TPTK.

If the standard raise is $18 you should be nitting up pre OOP, calling very few raises, and raising pre + bombing a lot of flops to capture the preflop calls. No reason to get fancy.

And as played I call flop. On turn, why would we bet if he'll call? That seems - EV. He's folding to a river shove when you actually hit your hand and he's probably checking behind if the flush hits.

Turn is maybe a c/r all in if V2 folds. You have to be certain on your read. Normally I'd just give up here.

Oh, and LOL at being willing to call anything for a Royal Flush bonus. The odds of you hitting a royal are so low that the bonus is worth maybe a few bucks. Seriously, I've played thousands of hours of live poker and I've never seen a royal flush hit. I'm sure someone can calculate the odds for you if you want to know, but the odds of hitting a royal with two in hand is minute. You have to choose 3 cards out of 50 in only 5 draws. This is lottery type of odds that is easily over 1/1,000.

EDITED to add: I think, given 2 hole cards that are needed to make a Royal Flush, it should be COMBIN(50,3)/COMBIN(50,5) (using combinations here). That's 19600/2118760, or under 1 in 1000 chances. Is it worth $5 bucks to call off $17 more? Heck no. Plus you'll owe taxes on that bonus payout and tips.

This is exactly my thoughts on flopping one pair as well (which everyone else seems to be so concerned about). I check/fold Q/T high flops and feel pretty good about it. Which will even be easier to do if raiser bets and gets a call+ (which we get to see from our okish relative position regarding this).

If that's the case are you calling 87 suited here too?

Yes. This deep and being multiway, plus the fact I'm not acting right after the raiser, I'm calling speculative hands here. I hate the fact I'm not in position on everyone, but that's not quite enough for me to fold here. I totally admit this might be too loose.

To me, it's too loose because a decent amount of the time you get a V to go all in this deep you are behind since you aren't drawing to the nuts. That's doubly true with something like 98 or 87 suited.

There's no reason to be that excited about calling with non-nut drawing hands that have RIO for pairs, trips, etc. You're investing too much and you won't get paid off enough. Your best hope is to hit against an under flush (unlikely since the pot was opened) or a set that doesn't boat up. Overpairs just aren't giving you 200 BB.

your only putting 2% of your stack in...so 1% good...my guess is a bigger pre flop pot is actually bettor for you if your planning on hitting a big pot hand.....

The problem with your logic..is your hand plays for a combination of reasons not just let me hit big....

Hitting a Q or a T does not have no value...it just has less value...many 4 way pots get checked down...sometimes you call a flush draw and hit a Q and it checks down....sometimes you pick up a combination on the turn or they bet small on the turn you get the odds to call...

In addition multi way does not mean you can never make a move....same flop...now V1 checks V2 bets v3 calls...great spot for a semi bluff check raise...if called huge number of cards you can second barrel with....I love making moves over bettors when the original raiser has checked...

My point is you don't need to hit the big hand and get payed off...that just one more factor (a big one) that adds to all the little ones that makes this a EV+.


If you never make moves oop or have trouble folding top pair... then folding here is fine ...at any rate its close...

Your suggested moves are not in my arsenal.

How can we get paid off when opponents are checking? The goal is to get paid off in multiples. While I understand your concept of making moves, multi-way, oop, and 1 short-stack does not seem to be the optimum spot. We likely can't even thin value our Q or T if one of those hit.

In your example, Hero checks the flop, Solid V2 bets, Nitty V3 calls, with EP raiser behind. This is a great spot to C/R b/c the EP raiser checked? Our line screams draw. If Hero hits the flop, they are leading to induce a raise by the original raiser.

Well I'll continue on even though I know the turn action is going to be hugely unpopular..

I've been at the table for a few hours, as have the other two villains. I have ~850 and cover villain 1 by ~100, villain 2 has me covered. Villain 3 has like ~200 and is an old nit.


Villain 1:

Pretty loose/passive, he limps and calls raises a lot. He'll raise every once and a while - not just with monsters. If he hits his hand, he's not afraid to fire some chips into the pot. He slows down if he gets played back at, however. He's an older guy, must be a kind of a regular because he knows some of the dealers. I'm a regular but I've never played with him before.

Villain 2:

He's a regular, I've played with him a few times. Pretty competent LAG/thinking player. It's hard to get him off his draws. Young kid, I think he might play for a living.


We are playing 7 or 8 handed. Blinds are $1/$3:

V1 is in MP and opens for $20, V2 calls from the button. SB calls.

Hero is in the BB with Q10 and calls.

Flop: 346

SB checks, Hero ??

Hero checks, V1 bets $50, V2 calls $50, SB folds, Hero calls.

I called PF because I was so deep and knew I could make a big profit if I hit a big hand. I normally wouldn't defend with this hand, but being deep plus $5k+ bonus for a Royal I figured it was worth it to see a flop.

At this point, I'm pretty sure V1 has 99+. He wouldn't cbet if he didn't have a PP. V2 most likely is on a draw, as he would raise his 2pair+ hands here. I've seen him lead out with top set multiple times, and he has to know that V1 has a hand at this point. I've also seen him raise his flush draws IP, so I don't think he has hearts - although he certainly could have since he should know V1 has a big hand.

Pot: $230

Flop: 346
Turn: 4

Hero ??

If I check here, V1 will most likely bomb $175+ here. If I bet, he will most likely call and not raise. Should I bet to have more control over the sizing or check and give up if he bombs the turn?


Hero bets $125, V1 tanks for 60-90 seconds and calls, V2 insta-calls.

Pot: $605

Flop: 346
Turn: 4
River: 3

I bet the flop in order to see a river for my price. I knew V1 would either fold or call - he would never raise here from what I saw. I expected V2 to give my bet respect and fold, unless he had a huge hand. I figured I'd c/c ~100, but at that point it'd turn my hand face-up if a heart fell on the river and I bet. This way, I think if a heart falls my hand is more disguised and I can get a call for 200-300. I'm still guaranteeing V1 has 99+, V2 either slowplayed a huge hand or has a huge draw like A5.

Hero ??

Does a bet on this river ever work, or is it time to c/f?

The point is not that the opponents are always checking...or they are always betting...

sometimes the opponents miss there hand and a Q or a T wins a small pot. I don't want a big pot with a Q or T...i'm glad there checking if their not checking i'm folding...

Sometimes..we hit big and are opponent hits....the pot already large so they commit quickly here...(thats why we want large pots pre flop with hands that may hit big)....Thats why top pair hands like AQ are so hard to play when the pot gets large multi way....by the time you figure it out its often too late...

Yes sometimes we hit a Q and the opponents bet and we have to fold...and sometimes we only win a small pot when we hit big, but thats still some money.


IMO to most players check raising that flop in low stake live games does not suggest draws....check raises to most players are strength...that why most players good players suggest donking out with your big hands....Even here with the original raiser to your left...many players will check their big hands, I would be tempted...

Keep in mind even if they suspect draws, they don't have to fold all the time for you to make money...it is a semi bluff....and given the board if they just call in this spot they almost always have a one pair type hand and will have trouble dealing with a lot of turn cards....

Check raising after the v2 bets and a nit calls is great because the nit can't have a good hand (this board nits raise here with a set what else can he have that can take heat), the original raiser given the description is almost never checking a good hand multi way on this flop

V2 is your only real concern and his range is wide in this spot . he's betting often here because two players including the original raiser, has checked and all he had to do is get through the nit... this is probably a very wide range... I also don't expect even good lagy players to re bluff a lot at live low stake poker...there is just to much low lying fruit in these games...

Turn is awful and is all the evidence needed to show how bad preflop was for you. Good job on "setting your price", too bad you're drawing very slim/dead based on your reads.

I don't mind the call preflop if the guy is weak passive and rarely raises, as long as he doesn't mind stacking off with over pairs. I'd normally c/r here but if he's not folding over pairs I'd just play it as a c/c. If he checks back the flop I'd bet turn and reevaluate if called, maybe bet the river if heads up.

Turn is just pure, pure spew. You are clicking buttons. "Raise makes people fold!" You are OOP with a decently strong range on V1 and no range on V2. Even if you hit V2 may have you crushed. Why do we commit another penny here?

Two callers to this river and you want to do anything but check/fold? You are getting snapped off all day here. This is 1/3. V's have committed 100 BB. You cannot tell me they are both going to fold if you make a stiff bet.

Also if V2 is a thinking player he is going to put busted draw in your range a lot since you check/called flop.