Quote:
Originally Posted by submersible
i'm not really sure what you're saying here. i told you why i think what you said is incorrect re ev differences. i'm open to being wrong but i think outside of a very specific nodelock for ip's postflop tendencies (which you probably aren't going to know vs most people you play with regularly let alone unknowns) that isn't going to be the case. you're not really saying anything or showing any kind of proof for it though which makes it difficult to really respond.
you want to ignore gto because you think no one is balanced but unless you have a very accurate (bordering on clairvoyant) idea of how unknowns approach spots how does that actually help you? i also think you may not understand what unexploitable means
Well i appreciate you giving me the push for buying piosolver cuz ive been planning to do it for a month and never feel in the mood to put a bunch of brain power into learning how to use it. Look at me blowing $250 for an internet argument :P.
Trying to put villain on a range isnt clairvoyancy, its what we do here. Im not saying my ranges are perfectly correct, im just saying i know for a fact GTO's 3 betting range here is going to be way off (too wide). OP said he put V on a 3 betting range like "big aces and big overpairs", which i took to mean the typical TT+ AQ+ 3 betting range at 1/3 and 2/5. I mean look at the range GTO wizard is giving villain and think about how unreasonable it is that V is 3 betting with like J9s here.
I gave piosolver the typical CO defending range against a 3 bet (honestly this is also probably wider than hero is calling), and V AQ+ TT+. Piosolver bets flop 100%. I actually widened V's 3 betting range to 15% (A3s+ 44+ ATo+ all suited broadway, K9s, KQo. Not saying it would be linear, im just doing quick and dirty) and it still cbets this flop 100% vs a GTO calling range.
If we force V to check his whole range OTF, hero bets only 28% of his range, (again, as i originally said, to me this was the big error. The check was about as obvious of a trap as V couldve laid), including 0% with T8hh.
After V check (whole range) and hero betting flop, hero bets 70% OTT and 93% OTR after betting the turn, and GTO makes it to showdown with all aces, about 20% of AK/AQ, and all of KK-TT that has a spade (folds KK-TT no spade), so sure, blasting off OTT and OTR with your cbetting range (which should be way narrower) is fine.
so yeah, I think the lesson here is youve GOTTA just give up with your complete air when youre this wide against a range this narrow. Im not saying you gotta do the GTO 28% range, sure, cbet 40% or something, im not asking for much here, I wouldnt come so hard down on this line if there was even a gutshot or a bdfd OTF, or if hero had an A for an over to some of the PPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by docvail
Somewhat surprised this hand is still being argued over.
Why can't we just call it what it is? OP is a LAG doing what LAGs do, opening wide from MP, and calling a 3B from the SB with a marginal hand, just intending to out-play his opponent post flop and IP, but the board didn't really cooperate, and he ran into the absolute top of V's range, so he went down in flames triple-barreling.
Hero pulled a Mike McDermott - "I had nothing, but he raised and I decided I don't care about the money, I'm just going to out play the guy, I'm going to out play this guy, this hand."
Most of us have done this at least once. I respect the cojones to follow through with the bluff. The reasoning, not so much. But the cojones, yeah, gotta show respect to the man who takes this line, expecting KK/QQ to fold, because eff those hands.
Arguing over whether or not V would be an idiot for calling with KK/QQ when the A hits the river seems like it misses the larger and more simpler lesson to be learned - sometimes it's okay to give up on our bluffs when our opponents don't appear to be in a folding mood.
Yeah im all in agreement on the first few paragraphs but I mean i dont think thats the takeaway big picture here. Its not about giving up after the flop, its about giving up ON the flop.