i play full ring 1/2 at a local casino and usually buy in for $200. i consider my self little above average player.
with $200 stack at 1/2 table, many times i find myself in difficult situations. for example last week i found myself in a raised pot with two really bad and loose players. they had been playing really loose. i called preflop raise with TQs and flop comes QJT rainbow ($40 pot). first player bets 90, second calls and i tank fold. turn is rag. first player checks, second player goes all in, first folds. second shows Kx. if i had 100-120 i would have called. but didnt feel like risking 200+.
like above, many times i pass slight +ev situations like 55%-45% because i dont want high variance (its a bankroll issue). 100-120 i dont mind. then other times, some really really good players bully me when they see i dont get in with slight +ev. with 120 stack i would be more willing to get it in with 55%-45% favorite. that way i can play comfortably with both really bad and really good players.
then everywhere i read, they preach u to buy in deep. its a good strategy against good players. but against really good and really bad players i m thinking about buying in for 100-120. later, if i feel the table is normal and i m comfortable, i can always add on to 200.
so is it optimal to buy in with 100-120 and may be add on later if i feel comfortable ?

When you are saying "you don't feel like risking" that means you have a bankroll issue. Build the bankroll then it won't be such a big deal. Not really a stack size problem.

Also don't know all the action obv but folding Top and Bottom pair against 2 "really bad and loose players" sounds pretty bad even on that board.

Do you understand that you will be getting worse implied odds with hands like QT suited if you are shorter? This could have implications on the profitability of playing these hands.

You are scared money and it's going to be very difficult to be profitable if that is the case.

The problem with this approach is that when you win you will be playing deeper. So, you would need to employ a hit and run approach.

There is some merit to buying in shorter. Obviously playing deep is optimal but most players, particularly less experienced players aren't that good at playing deep. You are sacrificing value vs the deep whales but at the same time if you play a good short game you can make life hell for really good players. Of course playing a good short game is key because very few live players can do it. If the standard hand you play involves calling with QT sooted then I don't know if you are going to be that difficult for anyone to play against but at least you were in position so thumbs up to that.

In summation, I'm ok with you taking this approach but you are going to have problems regardless if you don't build your bankroll up.

You ideally want to cover everyone at the table so you can maximise your value when you make a hand. This also means you need to pay attention to your opponents' stacks to know what the effective stack is (so you don't end up committing yourself in bad spots, which is a mistake I make frequently as an online player lacking an accurate stack size number!).

If you want to build a roll by short-stacking, that's fine but you shouldn't be seeing flops with QT if you do.

Hi,

The short answer is that it depends.
A lot of what it depends on are things that you have already mentioned in your post.

How good are the villains that you are playing aginst?
How good are you at various staack sizes?
How good are they at vaiour stack depths?
How big does the game play? I.e. are people raising to 5bb pre flop, or 10bb?

But even after you answer these questions, what it will really come down to is that you have a lot more to learn, and you are scared money. It is a fact.

When you talk about the QT hand, you didn't make and mention of 'I thought I was ahead' or 'I thought I was behind' you mention you didn't want to play for that much money.
Do you have a limited bank roll? Are you afraid to put all your money in when you have the best hand but might be up against a strong draw? Are you playing above your means?

I'd recomend that you search this site for ideas, and do a lot more reading, get your bank roll to a point where you are ok losing $200.
Then play more.

Good luck,
irtm

thanks for all responses. i usually buy in for 200 and still think its the optimal buy in. then once in a while you run into these crazy tables with a couple of really good players or a couple of really bad players who play super wide and big pots (in those situations i have seen many TAGS go busto too). i usually pass on slight +ev situations ESPECIALLY EARLY IN A SESSION. YES EARLY IN A SESSION. later on i might have more read/feel of the table. then i m leaving money on the table. those wild plays dont last long. a couple of people will go bust and after a while it will be back to normal. feel like i m missing the action. so what i m thinking is buy in for 120, and if the table is not super wild, top off for 200.

Scared money dont make money

This question comes up a lot so I created a sort of chart that shows visually how the game changes in terms of chip stack size.

What a lot of beginners do not understand is that poker and correct +EV play actually changes as a function of eff stacks. That is, there are some plays that are +EV when you are deep stack or normal stack yet are -EV if you are short stacked

This is why you hear players always talk about the need to be deep and to buy-in at 100bb. The reason is because it actually impacts profitability.

The deeper you are, the deeper eff stacks, the MORE +EV plays you have available.



The more skilled you are, the more poker concepts and fundamentals you understand, the more +EV plays you have in your arsenal, then the deeper you want to be.

However, if you are less skilled and are always trying to reduce the game down to push/fold then the more you are going to like playing shallow.

I play with several players who always buy-in for 40bb. They fold-fold-fold limp call a couple of times then fold and bleed down to 25bb - 30bb until they get AQ or 99 and then they shove all-in. They either lose and reload another 40b or they win and double up to 50bb or 60bb and go through this cycle of bleeding down to 30-ish bb then shoving all-in. Eventually, after 3 or 4 cycles of doubling up or busting/reloading they eventually luckbox a 3 way pot and now they are up 120bb!!!!! They then usually either cash out, or they stay and play. In the case of them staying and playing 95% of the time, they are busto within the next hour because they have never learned how to play anything beyond push/fold poker. So they make all sorts of mistakes and making all sorts of horrific calls just because they don't know how to play when they actually have to think beyond one street of push/fold

Anyways, hopefully with the above you can start to get a conceptual understanding of eff stack sizes impact +EV lines...

GL

You're asking a complicated question, but the real issue, as others itt have said, is that you are clearly scared money. There is a lot of variance in poker. If you're not willing to play big pots with a slight edge, whether for bankroll reasons or whatever emotional reasons, you should not be playing in this game. In addition to missing +EV spots, if you're never playing big pots, most opponents are simply not going to shovel all their chips into a pot with you when you have the nuts.

I just wanted to highlight the emotion in your post.

Reading between the lines, I think you are a beginner player who has subconsciously accepted a lot of the LLSNL group think that is pervasive in live casinos.

The group think believes all sorts of erroneous things and has all sorts of mantras like, "Don't want to be greedy... Hate losing with AA so I prefer to raise everyone out and take the pot down preflop... Got to get the drawers out...."

one of the funniest forms of group think among beginners is their disdain for "bad players". It's amazing how much beginners genuinely hate, despise, and fear bad players and some of that is coming off in your post.

Once you truly start to internalize key concepts and understand poker, then you will understand that there is nothing in the world of poker that is better than a horrendously bad player at your table and doubly so if he has a ton of chips in front of him

The other day, there was this horrific luckbox terribad aggro spewtarded monkey playing in the 2/5nl game. He had gotten on a run and had $4k in front of him

Every single +EV player in the casino was trying to beg, borrow, and steal their way onto this table. IN fact, one reg actually "bought" a seat from a short stacker and said, "I will give you $50 if you trade seats with me!!!!" just so he could get on that table.

Anyways, welcome to 2+2, everything you need to be a winning player is here on this site if you are willing to do the work. Stick around and we will change your mindset and your game

GL

If you feel you have an edge on everyone at the table, which should be the case because you get to pick the table (lol donkaments), just sit with the max.

A couple of times I was at a table with someone who was slightly thinking and more aggressive than most. Those times I sat with ~70BBs. Sitting with less takes away an aggressive opponent's value in bluffing you off hands. With less of a stack you can more easily get ai with overpairs or TPTK.

What would you wear under your pants instead?

I like to buy in for 70-75bb's. This way I'm not sitting that deep readless. Usually by the time I've adjusted and have a feel for the table, I've generally chipped up to 100bb's anyway .

If you can't sit with 2 buyins and feel ok going home broke and not worry about paying rent, then you're definitely going to be scared money, so just wait until you are in this spot (at least).

I'll just say that A. I'm a bad player, but not as bad as MOST of the players I've played with this past 6 months. I wouldn't believe my friends when they tried to tell me how bad the players were or how face up they played. Until I played.

B..I buy in for 50bbs. (also bankroll issues) I lost my first 3 buy ins playing scared (and some bad luck) I found a short stack strat. online. memorized it and, for the most part, am playing that strat. It is pretty much the same as DG's chart. Maybe even a little tighter. Short stack poker is boring as hell to start out, but if you're patient, you should be getting you're money in the middle as a pretty good favorite. Playing that way to start gives me a chance to really watch the other players at the table and try to pick up on styles, tells, who understands bet sizing etc.

C. Read, reread and really try to understand what DGI tells you. I got torched for making a huge mental error. (rightly so) After reading DG's posts to me and talking to a friend about it, I'm am 99% sure that when that situation comes up again, I won't be making that same mistake.

I don't know if this helps, I like buying in for 50-60bbs. Just my 2 cents.

i think i m misunderstood here. i am not talking about ur typical short stack strategy. i am talking abt buying in for 50-60 bb and kind of feel the table dynamics.
many times i run into a wild table where a good LAG or spewy bad LAG is bullying the table. whenever someone tries to counter these LAGs, either they double up or go bust because these LAGs play super wide. its not that i m playing my rent money or i only have 2 buyins, but i dont want to gamble 100BB so early in the session. with 50-60 bbs i might take my chances in slight +EV situations.

and no i m not newbie and i consider myself above average player at 1/2

Either buy in for 50bb or save up a $2k bankroll through a job so you don't have to worry about getting stacked a couple times.

Serious question, no disrespect meant: why not?

I think the key is to ask yourself WHY you go to the casino to play poker. Are you trying to make money (like seriously make money) or have a good time (and maybe leave with more money than you started)?

This will drive your decisions. If making money is the only goal passing a +EV spot is a mistake.

If losing your buy in on the first hand means you have nothing to do all night long on a Friday night then pass the spot up and enjoy the entertainment that poker can and does provide

it amazes me how everybody here talks like they can play like a machine with no emotions and stuff like that. i have never seen a player who is not affected, however slightest it might be, after losing 100bbs+ early in a session at 1/2. in fact one of the greatest leaks i have seen at 1/2 is emotion/tilt control.

I get stuck early ~30% of the time, occasionally multiple buy ins. This is a calculated risk because I know that other players are much less competent at playing deep stacked and I will have a much larger edge if we're sitting on 250+ bb. It's also great for image to look like a gambling degen early on.

If it messes with you mentally to drop a buy in early on, you probably have bankroll issues or at the very least need to work on your mental game. This isn't meant as an insult. Like you said, many people at 1/2 are terrible at handling swings and tilt at the drop of a hat. I've found that throwing hands into pokerstove and getting better at assigning ranges, as well as just playing more, all help to improve my mental response to the game.

+1

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CmAKAZkYCt...-gladiator.gif

trying to resurrect an old meme.