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Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Optimal Turn Play with Middle set?

02-25-2014 , 02:48 PM
I played this hand last night in a 1/2 game at a local casino. It ended up HU to the flop versus a borderline maniacal LAG. This player and I have quite a bit of history. I was uncertain what to do on the turn to optimize. Any feedback is appreciated.

Meta-Game histroy:

This guy is a really good hand reader and abuses TAGs who won't adjust when hes deep. But When he gets chips he can't help himself and doesn't always re-adjust well in the meta-game.

The first time i played with this V, He absolutely abused me. I was too nitty and he abused my unwillingness to stack off against him with 1 pair. He and I were the deepest at the table both over 1000.

I got to see several of his bluffs shown down b/c he was in side pot action with me and a short stack had already shoved. He semi-bluff bombed two turns and missed, but won good side pots from me. He also Turned a pair and a missed gutterball into a River shove bluff when a 4 str8 hit. I reviewed the hand histories and my range analyses were fairly spot on, I just nit balled it up and chose low variance for the night.

The next time we played I decided to call him down with the top of my range no matter what ran out, to take away his Fold equity and let my strong range dominate his ATC. This worked 4 of 5 big hands we were in and he never could stop running the big bluff at scare cards.

The next time we played I had to stop calling his big bets and over bets on scary rivers, b/c he was checking more and every time he bombed a scare card he had it. In other words he re-adjusted to my lighter call downs. I still checked monsters to let him fire with air, and raised/check raised with weak made hands and draws. He folded to my aggression every time.

This leads into last night. We both generally pot controlled against each other most of the night as neither had big hands and he was under 100BB, he plays TAGish until he chips up.

I one hand this session I flopped a set of 4s on a 345r flop and checked to him and one other player. It checked through and I checked a 10 turn. The hitchhiker bet ten and V raised to 45. I decided to flat and give him the illusion i was drawing so he would fire brick rivers. The hitch hiker folded. The turn bricked and I checked, V checked behind. He obviously isn't firing busted draws when i show interest with a cold call. He suspects the trap.

Later He Flopped TPOE and GII versus a set of tens from one of the TAGs on a QT9 2tone flop. He won and the maniacal LAG in him took over. He won a few more pots w/o SD, and was at 550ish to start teh hand in Question.

SB Villain (550)
BB Tag reg (175)
Straddle FISH (140)
Hero UTG +1 (covers)

There was a fishy Unkown behind me with about 85 and 3 NIT balls who wait for QQ+ and AK versus this Villain. A really bad LAP who always straddles and raises it about 50% when noone had opened put 5 on it.

Hero: Limps QhQc with the intentions of limp raising the SB or the Straddle both of who are very likely to raise.

Folds to V in the SB Who makes it 25.
Folds back to Hero.

I flat here not wanting to lose him. He puts way too many chips in pots with air when he thinks he has fold equity.

Pot: 58 Heads up
Villain (525)
Hero Covers

Flop = AcQs4s

V (495) leads 30
Hero calls 30

Pot: 118

Turn = 2d

V checks
Hero bets 60

V check raises to 260, leaving 235 back.
Hero ???
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 02:50 PM
Shove
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadePeddler
Shove
That was obviously one choice. The other is Flat and let him fire the RIver with Air or value own himself with AK or 2p.

I was just torn between which line to take.

Im never folding.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 02:58 PM
Stop playing fancy. You're losing value in the long run. The set of 4's hand is played bad. There's no way you check turn with any good draws, and then there's no way you cold call the turn raise with bad draws. Start betting so your range is wider.

Your thinking changes completely based on action, you start with a plan then completely change it because of V. Stop playing passively and letting V take the initiative. He's already started checking back some of the time, this is a luxury you're allowing him to have.

Clearly shove as played. You're never flat calling with any draws here, and he's not folding AK+ or AXss. He probably won't value own himself with AK/Axss otr.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
Stop playing fancy. You're losing value in the long run. The set of 4's hand is played bad. There's no way you check turn with any good draws, and then there's no way you cold call the turn raise with bad draws. Start betting so your range is wider.

Your thinking changes completely based on action, you start with a plan then completely change it because of V. Stop playing passively and letting V take the initiative. He's already started checking back some of the time, this is a luxury you're allowing him to have.

Clearly shove as played. You're never flat calling with any draws here, and he's not folding AK+ or AXss. He probably won't value own himself with AK/Axss otr.
Ya so im not worried about the 44s hand as much. I know i played it weakly.

The reason I considered flatting was to keep the AIR portion of his range in play OTR. It is a large portion of his range. And he has spewtard tendencies. Obviously though if he misses a draw OTR i don't get paid anymore if he doesn't fire.

If i flat the turn and he checks I can range target his Ax hands.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManiacalNit
Ya so im not worried about the 44s hand as much. I know i played it weakly.

The reason I considered flatting was to keep the AIR portion of his range in play OTR. It is a large portion of his range. And he has spewtard tendencies. Obviously though if he misses a draw OTR i don't get paid anymore if he doesn't fire.

If i flat the turn and he checks I can range target his Ax hands.
How often do you think he turns up with air AND decides to spew it off otr?

He has so little behind he can't/won't fold anything. Calling and checking river loses you value vs draws. Your range is wider to include bluffs if you shove turn. If you just call it doesn't.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:12 PM
Also Im not sure he knows how i have adjusted to him, fully.

He bombs hands like AK in this spot, becaues most people adjust by calling him down lightly and raising him with monsters.

He has been checking some, but he has also been folding to all of my aggression.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
How often do you think he turns up with air AND decides to spew it off otr?

He has so little behind he can't/won't fold anything. Calling and checking river loses you value vs draws. Your range is wider to include bluffs if you shove turn. If you just call it doesn't.
Well I did decide to Shove the Turn. I didn't wanna lose value from draws.

He tanked for a minute or so, and "asked AQ?", He folded.

I knew that he was capable of big folds when facing aggression, b/c thats how the locals adjust to him, shove as soon as the pot gets big and let him know hes beat. They give him too much information advantage by raising, and they always proudly table their monster.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
Your range is wider to include bluffs if you shove turn. If you just call it doesn't.
Also not sure i understand these sentences.

My range is wider to induce bluffs if i shove the turn?

If I shove the turn how do I induce bluffs?
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:39 PM
Grunch...

Um... All-in?

You also say that you limped with the intention of re-raising and then you flat... What's with that? I mean if that was your plan all along, then fine, but thats not what you said.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManiacalNit
Also not sure i understand these sentences.

My range is wider to induce bluffs if i shove the turn?

If I shove the turn how do I induce bluffs?
He said include, not induce. But either way, you aren't shoving the turn as a bluff anyway. The value of shoving the turn is to make him put his last $235 in if he's got a draw/any equity.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaNEWPr0fess0r
Grunch...

Um... All-in?

You also say that you limped with the intention of re-raising and then you flat... What's with that? I mean if that was your plan all along, then fine, but thats not what you said.
Well I definitely would have 3bet to thin the field, but it folded to me so it was HU vs. ManiacLag who now has chips and will start to try and push me around with them. I have position and an under-repped hand. I know there is a good chance to play for stacks without 3-betting here. He has never seen me 3 bet him light. I feel he'll have me on a very narrow range if i do so, and proceed cautiously. This guy when he is in maniac mode can be a complete agro monkey. His biggest weakness is shoveling too much money in pots when he has little combined equity. I want to let him make that mistake.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote
02-25-2014 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaNEWPr0fess0r
He said include, not induce. But either way, you aren't shoving the turn as a bluff anyway. The value of shoving the turn is to make him put his last $235 in if he's got a draw/any equity.
I understand that, and thats why i shoved.

But I felt that by shoving I shut out his air and mediocre made hands. leaving only draws he will put more money in with.

While by flatting, I leave him the opportunity to fire mediocre hands and air, Bluff all scare cards and generally just spaz out thinking he has fold Equity since people adjust by trying to get to showdown cheaply against him with weak made hands. These hands are a much larger portion of his range.
Optimal Turn Play with Middle set? Quote

      
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