I’ve heard a lot of opinions on optimal preflop raise sizing. In a live game some people think 3-4x is best, others think 5-8x is better. How people play doesn't really interest me, it’s why they play the way they do that interests me.

I have my own thoughts on the issue of preflop sizing, but wanted to get every one's thoughts

Obviously poker is a game of adjusting your play based on many factors, and understand given certain game dynamics what might be considered optimal changes - i’m asking about what is optimal as a default against mostly unknowns in a low (500NL and smaller) game.

Assuming 100bb sacks in a $1/$2 Live NL ring game

What is your default open size? 3x? 4x? 6x?
What is your default raise size with 1 limper?
What is your default raise size with 2 limpers?
Does position change your sizing?

If the table ‘standard’ open is 7x, do you follow? Why?

I see a trend in live games to open really large, 6x 8x even 10x sometimes. I personally don’t follow this trend, in a 1/2 game my standard open is 3.5x ($7), and for limpers it’s 3.5x+1bb per limper. So with two limpers i’ll pop it to $10.

Many think this is too small for a live game, and i’ve had tilted players berate me for it. A guy I busted w. AK once yelled “what are you doing make it $7 with AK, that’s a premium hand man, I don’t get it, you make it $7 $7 $7, it’s stupid” I also had a guy call a shove by me once because he said “I didnt think you had kings, you only made it $7 so”

Confusing people has nothing to do with my preflop raise size though, if it confuses people that’s cool but it’s not a reason, my sizing has a few reasons behind it. ( Keep in mind these are just my reasons currently, I could be wrong and an open to changing my mind. )

1. Pot control & Stack manipulation: The difference between a winning player and a losing player is all decisions. A winning player by definition makes better decisions during a hand than a losing player, and every street of a hand involves decisions. Should I bet the flop? Should I call the raise? Should I bet $20 or $50? What do I do now that I missed my flush? Is he bluffing? Should I fold?

If you’re better than your opponent at figuring out the answer to those and other questions during a hand, one way to maximize your edge is to create situations where more decisions are required to play the hand. This sounds a little strange, how can we just “create” situations where “more decisions” are required?

Consider playing a hand headsup with an opponent with only $10 in a $1/$2 game. He shoves with K9 and you call with pocket 77s. He flops a king and wins.

In this spot nobody is really making any mistakes, and even if you’re much better of a player than him you really have no edge in this spot. There was literally only one decision, shove or fold. That’s it. If both started the hand with say $150 then he might raise to $8 and you call, and flop comes A49, he checks, you bet and now he has a decision: call, fold, or raise. He calls. Turn Q, he checks and you bet big, again does he call fold or raise?

The deeper the stacks the more actual poker is possible. The deeper you are the more decisions you can force your opponent to make, and if you’re better at decisions you want as many as possible.

If you’re playing in a $1/$2 game with $200 and you raise to $12 preflop (6x) stacks may be 100bbs but your raise makes the hand play more like a 50bb stack. Let’s say you raised $80 preflop with AQ, and he your opponent calls. Flop J27 , The pot is $160 and you have $120 behind. Obviously your pre-flop decision REDUCED the number of possible decisions left in the hand. You can’t really bet the flop without committing yourself, you can’t barrel him without being all in on the turn, there’s so little money behind that you’ve handcuffed yourself into playing a giant bloated pot, your edge has been reduced.

Our pre-flop decisions are often the most simple but most important. How we play preflop effects everything about the hand post flop. We pre-flop raise size effects our cbet size, and our cbet size effects our turn bet size etc. So when thinking of what amount to raise on average a smaller raise maximises our edge since we leave ourselves enough money behind to outplay our opponent post flop. Big pots don’t matter, little ones do.

2. Enables me to play more hands: If my standard raise size is 7x, it’s going to be harder to play hands like 65, K3, or 58 in position aggressively. These hands play best in multi way pots, and will more often just flop a pair or a weak draw. If your standard open is this big, it’s harder to get yourself to raise with them, it’s not an issue with a smaller raise size. Playing in position against bad players is very profitable and I want to take any edge I can - a smaller raise allows me to play more hands.

3. Balance: This is almost a non-issue at LLSNL (Live Low Stakes) but we still should be thinking what our opponents will think of our hand when we make it $7 after making it $15 all night long. Yes, players a LLSNL are not paying anywhere close enough attention where balance becomes an issue but poker is a game of information and having raise sizes based on our hand value is giving too much away.

I also personally do not agree or understand with following the "table standard" if anyone knows why this is good feel free to tell me.

tl;dr: What's the bestest preflop raise live? anything above 4x is spewy tardness imo

Well I tried to play like you in a 1/2 game. It didn't work out. So immediately I moved up to 2/5 where 3bbs, 4bbs or 5bbs is an optimal raise size for practically everyone.

Just face it not raising 5bbs+ in a 1/2 game is a recipe for disaster.

Dependent on so much imo.

Are ALL of these raises for value? From what position? Is it a full table? What are the other stacks? Is everyone opening regularly, or at least most people seem to have a raising range?

I sit down and raise to 8$-10$ if I'm the first to open a pot. In EP I tend towards larger. If it's a table where no one ever raises, I make it 8 bc I save money and tend to be an active player. Shorter table changes things too. So do shorter stacks.

I raise because I want to build a pot and reduce the number of players I'm playing against post flop (as it's easier to play HU, etc). If I need to raise to 12$ to do that, I will do it. It's very different from online, 6$ raises from UTG are frequently met with 4-6 calls. You have to flop miraculously to win 5-7way pots.

Grunch: it depends imo

Between 2.5 and 5x BB depending on a number of factors such as whether i am playing superlag or tight, hand strength and whether i want a multiway pot, if its a blind raise (help create an action table), opponents stack sizes, what i think they will call, if a hot chick has just walked past, trying to look like a donk etc etc. Table standard raising is rubbish, if someone decides you arent raising enough chips theyll just double your raise so I dont worry about that. Some people make it 5bb and then insta open for 11bb with premiums. So predictable.

2/2 the more stationy they are, the better my reads on them i raise it more cause i want to invest them faster, also depends on my stack. 6-7 to me is stupid in 1/2 cause they still call with their whole range as if they are limping. 10 seems to be a good number, but the best tables ive been on is when 15 gets called pf. i bet 6-7 when its a hand i can limp with but dont want to cause of the table dynamics. now some might say im telegraphing my bets but its not to hard to figure out who notices and to balance this while at a table if need be.

people at tht level see it as absolute value only.

another thing is you talk about optimal PFR and how raising 10Xbb is spew but when postflop people dont understand SPRs and bet super low and not optimally then your theory doesnt work.

if all Vils bet even 1/2 PSBs on streets it would make a difference but when the betting usually goes 1/2 PSB, then 1/4PSB then like 1/4PSB again wtf is that?

I can imagine someone betting $50 in a 2/5 game. That just lol bad and commits you on the flop with all the callers you will get.

Never commit yourself before the flop. Its just bad poker.

In the £1/2 games I mostly play when playing live (which tend to play with 200BB avg stack or more, so reasonably deep) anything from 3.5-6x is pretty standard. I tend to be on the 4-5x myself (+1BB per limper). In certain spots where I don't want a family pot I'll raise a lot more (say I have KK and want to thin a field of 4 limps and I'm in CO and know that blinds and limpers will all call if I make it 16 - then I'll make it a bit more to not have a 7-way pot with my KK, but rather a 2-4way pot)

Obviously you never want to raise something like 10x as standard for a wide range of hands seeing as you're gonna be AI by turn/river with a 100BB stack if you don't fold flop. However, raising 2.5-3x like you do online is often quite pointless as pretty much everyone will call and you get 5+ way pots in EVERY hand.

IME you can play completely in-balanced until 5/5 an not he exploited one bit. Even in some live 5/10 games (from what I've seen) players may be too bad to pay any attention to balance, etc

I like to raise as much as the table allows when I have a premium hand and limp or raise small when I have a drawing hand. Exploitable but so what.

Let me preface this by saying I've only played live for 5 sessions so far. However, after my first session, I quickly realized that having a standard raise of $10 in a $1-2-3 game was not getting the effect I wanted to. I also realized that making it more didn't get everyone to fold.

From then on I started making it $15, which has worked much better. It also makes sense in that $5 chips are about 80%+ of the chips in play. It would slow the game up to make it $11-14 or $16-19.

I add another $5 for each limper, give or take.

Only game that your raises are exploitable is 1/2. Every other game raises are similiar you never know when they have a monster.

In 1/2 they raise to 10x, they have AQ+,QQ+, the players that could exploit you don't play 1/2. 1/2 is not going to make you a better poker player, but it can be used to get up to a decent game like 2/5+.

yea when i play 3/5 my std raise is usually between 15-20, rarely will i open for 25 unless its crazy table.

been reading you **** on 1/2 games pretty often today/lately. it's the lowest level of skill at a casino nlh table, of course. but how can you justify saying it won't make you a better poker player? you learn pot odds, position, betting strategies, come across diff opponent types (nits, lags, loose passive, tight passive, maybe even a few decent tags), and mostly you learn to adjust your game to what is needed to beat the table.

2/5 games probably play more like "poker" does, a more consistent level of skill, and a more frequent "correct" action by opponents. but br management and game selection overrides playing with better opponents. would i be better if i played a 6 handed cash game with PA, dwan, ivey, etc daily? For sure.

The 1/2 games are soft as hell, softer than microstakes online by miles. Very profitable, and i'm sure you can learn from them.

didnt we all start somewherE?

I'm not trying to be a douche. You can learn from any poker game. When I first started playing poker. I played play money on fulltilt. For all the different types of games. I wouldn't do it for real money. But I learned without a price.

Then I went to Vegas. Told my self I'm going to play 1/2 at bally's. I pretty much sucked and could put people on PFR ranges because of bet sizing and I was not even trying. I end up winning a $100. I went online and watch the cash games. I admired that you could raise 3x and 1 or 2 callers consistently.

I'm not saying 1/2 is any easier then 2/5. I actually think for a advanced player(basic fundamentals effective stacks and your stack to game plan strategy) that 1/2 is harder then 2/5.

Since you pretty much have to raise to $20 in ep with your strong hands. Even my grandma can put me on a range.

In 2/5 I raise monsters in EP with 4bbs, the same goes for me raising pocket 9s UTG. My grandma could never put me on a range.

That's like the biggest difference for me. I don't want everyone at the table putting people on ranges.

1/2 bet sizing is easily recognizable to a drunk person. Those are just facts I'm stating. I'm not trying to bash anyone. Everyone has their own opinions.

yo my bad man, not accusing you of being a douche. but i just think acknowledging that the nature of live 1/2 makes you do things that aren't viable at other games/stakes is diff than saying you can't learn/beat the game you know?

Cali, why are you suggesting that while 1/2 is lol-bad, people are putting you on ranges? Anyways, no one is saying that your open UTG can't be 5-6x for your entire range, and OTB could be 3.5x, if you are concerned about that.

Back on topic, I agree with OP that large default opens just cuz the rest of the table is doing it doesn't make any sense. But I admit I vary my raise size quite a bit against most opponents. First, d/t limpers in most hands, I am varying anyway d/t pot size. But I also vary based on stack sizes and what kind of hand I am looking to flop. Sometimes I just want to build a medium-ish pot that I can easily play when I flop a draw. So I'll raise to $8 or $10 if the pot is 4-6 ways. Other times I am looking to get heads-up or 3 ways. Raise to $15-18. If I'm first open, same concept applies, but I'm varying more in late position than early. $8 is my standard open, but it's 10 or 12 if I'm trying to ensure getting the button.

Is this exploitable? Yes! Do I feel most villians are reading me correctly when I do this? No.

Why do you have to raise larger?

This applies to all poker games, how is 3/5 special in this?

Is this where the classic "Move up to where they respect your raises" comes in?

The 1/2 game I recently started playing has a table full of different players raising different amounts. Anywhere from 4x-12x. A lot of straddlers too, from $6 to as high as $30 last night from anywhere on the table. And it's just a straddle as action still begins from UTG.

I'm playing extremely tight compared to the others there and when I open raise, generally it's been 4x. Thing is, I only open raise when I'm UTG LOL. From anywhere else there is already action on me. In the last three sessions, not once has it ever been folded to me in LP.

Preflop raising has to be table dependent I would think. If you hold a premium and want to thin out the table so as not to play it with 6 others, on the table I was at last night you had better jack it up huge enough to fold out some while keeping in the LAGs in seat 2 and 3.

Axiom, I've followed your other threads/posts on preflop raise sizing. I agree in principal that you want to raise to an amount preflop that leaves room for maneuvering on post-flop streets and a good starting point for this in a vacuum is 3.5X. One important aspect of the preflop raise though that I think you're not putting enough weight on - in addition to raising for value you also need to thin the field. This is especially true if you'll be OOP postflop. At a lot of $1/$2 games 3.5X is just not going to cut it in that respect. All those who were going to limp $2 will just as happily throw in $7 and you find yourself raising UTG+3 to $7 with KQo and then going to the flop 6 handed.

I think the whole premise of "what is the optimal preflop raise size" is flawed. The "optimal" preflop raise is one in which:

- you get money in when you're likely ahead / when it's +EV
- you leave SPR intact enough to put villain to tough decisions postflop
- you get marginal hands to fold thereby narrowing villains range so you can make better decisions

What is "optimal" is going to vary table to table based on how loose and deep the table is overall, who is the table captain and what are they opening to, how many are just there to gamboool, etc. You may play at a game where 3.5x accomplishes that and if so that's great - but there are plenty of games where any preflop raise less than 5x is essentially ignored.

Isn't one of the reasons we raise preflop to limit the field down to a manageable number? I mean, I'd much rather have KK facing 2 opponents for $12 each than 6 opponents for $6 each (note how pot size on flop is the same in this example). Our overpair in the latter example is almost worthless vs this many opponents, and we should play postflop extremely cautiously (almost as if we went for a limp/reraise preflop and fell flat on our face).

Also, one of the biggest leaks I see from opponents is playing speculative hands (pocket pairs, suited connectors, etc.) preflop for large percentages of their stack. A guy playing a $100 stack ain't making a mistake calling a $7 bet preflop with a pocket pair knowing that the flop is going to be 5+ ways; he's making a helluva mistake calling a $12 bet knowing that it'll probably be HU.

FWIW, I play 1/3 and my standard raise is around 5x + BB/limper, but even this is table dependent.

I agree and already mentioned this in my original post, my question was assuming 100bb 9 handed against mostly unknowns. In a game with reads and stacks of different sizes obviously your play will vary.

In a game where nobody folds at all preflop, like in a play-chip game open shoving say AQ would be best.

If players are calling a $7 raise with the same range that they are limping then I think there's better ways to adjust to this.

First i'd play absolutely nitty up front, being OOP multiway in a bloated pot is what nightmares are made of. You can't cbet as often because it's multiway, your cbet will be big, it will just suck. At a table like this i'd meganit

I don't actually mind making your raise size larger given these player types, I just think with it you need to narrow your range a lot. My issue is making this your "standard"

Open shoving AQ would not be the best, at least not with the players I've seen the past few weeks. It's a flip at best, imo. Watched a guy stack off in a MW pot with 44 and declared, "My pocket pairs NEVER hold up!"

Nitty up front is my plan but will attempt every now and then to limp SC's, AXs when I think it might get through. Some times I end up calling a raise from MP but it's still 5+ players calling. Hit trip 6's last night A6s on K66 ftw!

4x opens seemed to work one night while last night 8x opens were still seeing multiple flatters at times.

That doesn't mean your raise was wrongly sized; it means you chose the wrong hand to raise and the wrong position from which to raise it.

I've never played online in my life. But I have noticed over the past few years that the average open-raise at live 1/2 has gotten larger. I put that down to a number of factors:

1) Recreational players play poorly postflop. Larger PF raises mean smaller SPRs, which mean fewer tough decisions postflop.
2) Rec players overvalue big cards. Larger PF raises (usually) mean fewer opponents to the flop, which mean big cards hold up more often.
3) Rec players undervalue position. Larger PF raises blunt the positional advantage.

For all the opposite reasons, I like to keep my raises smaller. This allows me to raise more hands and build pots in position (it doesn't take an 8BB raise to get a donk to stack off for 100BB on the turn, believe me), while still hiding information (you wouldn't believe how readily some people will stack off to a shove once you've raised to $7 with AA and been 3-bet to $25 with KJo - because you'd never only raise to $7 with aces!!1!1!).

Naturally, this course of action changes your playing dynamics. If my standard raise is to $7 and I pick up KQo from UTG+3, it's going in the muck. I know a raise will get 4-5 callers, and I'd be an idiot to play that hand 6 ways to the flop.

But instead I get to play hands from LP such as 75s that I'd have to fold if I had to make it $15 to go every time. And I'll gladly play fewer 'small pot' hands for more BB preflop in exchange for getting to play more 'big pot' hands for fewer BB preflop - especially when the 'long term' doesn't arrive quickly enough in live poker for people to catch on that you're consistently raising small pairs and SCs in those spots.