Hey all, sorry if this is a little disjointed but I'm having trouble figuring it all out myself, so I figured I'd come here for a little help and see if we can't all learn something in the process-

Recently had a rough session at a "home game" and am looking for strategies to counter nits without spewing off chips to stations at the same time, which brought me to think about using SPR to set up flop/turn shoves in situations where I expect to have either a winning hand or enough outs+FE to make it profitable (since the local stations tend to tighten up against AIs as opposed to large bets that might as well be AIs, usually irrespective of pot size).

Usually when I sit, most of the table is 50bbs deep or less, and there are only 1-2 people with more. If it's someone I expect to have a skill advantage over me, I'll sit with 50bb like the rest of the table to minimize that advantage; otherwise, I'll bump it up to 100bb so I can have a shot at their stack with big hands and limping behind on occasion to try and hit yahtzee flops.

I'm having trouble finding a sweet spot for PFRs that sets up pot sized turn (or even flop) shoves 50bbs deep when the game tends to be as loose-passive as it is (being 1-2NL and all). Anything up to 5bb gets a good 4-5 callers at least, making a flop shove an overbet and having a PSB on the flop leave me with a small stack relative to the pot on the turn. 10bb will still get 1-2 callers, sometimes more. As much as this sets up a decent shove for a bit larger than the pot on the flop (assuming 2 callers for a 30bb pot and 40bb behind), I hate having to make that the plan and how any sort of CB on my part commits me to the pot in most circumstances. Not to mention, this leaves me putting a fifth of my stack in preflop, leaving any bluff CB/AI I try to run vulnerable to stations getting married to their overpairs when I've got something on the order of AK.

Unfortunately, this is all I can think of in terms of countering the 1 or 2 nits that tend to show up occasionally, since I imagine it would help clearly define the nits' ranges vs. the board postflop (on the rare occasions they don't fold) and still allows the stations to call with worse and fold to my CBs/AIs when they miss (or, God willing, stack off with TPNK).

Alright, LLSNL, let's beat some sense into me. Thoughts?

Sounds exploitable.

If you pick the right spots with high equity near-nut draws, it can be very profitable in these games.

However, you should also be aware of the high variance nature of such plays, so you should always bring more than few buy-ins.

That's why I'm trying to come up with something better. I'll run it for a few sessions and get a feel for the reactions from both sides, but barring any better ideas coming along I think my saving grace (if there is one) is that most of the rest of the table will lack the guile to exploit it, even as exploitable as it is.

i don' think a 1/2 game filled with 50 bb short stacks can be beaten for much even if the players are bad, and even if you beat it the winrate wouldn't be worthwhile.

my advice would be to just sit back and play for fun. you're overthinking the game when it sounds like >$200 don't happen too often.

That should def. not be your primary concern when you a playing
in a home game with weak passive players.

The thing is, open seats fill quickly and the ones that stay tend to rebuy early and often; I've left games like this up 300-400bb hitting even just a decent run of cards, value betting stuff like TPGK with the occasional cooler thrown in there.

However, at the beginning of the game when everyone's got 50bb, or when the guys that bust are rebuying for 50bb, even if I'm deep the effective stacks stay the same, and I can only really play poker with the one or two other guys (often the nits, sometimes a donk on a hot streak) at the table sitting with 100bb+.

Otherwise, against the ~50bb stacks I end up having to make underbets for value that aren't enough to properly charge draws or "overbets" (that would be correct against a 100bb stack) that blow them out of the pot and leave money on the table, pretty much forcing them to play correctly except when I'm semi-bluffing (which tends to be inadvisable anyway against weak-passive station types).

This is a typical short stack, loose-passive game that gets deeper stacked as the evening progresses. The goal is to double up in a profitable manner. It doesn't do any good to get in your short stack as a dog time after time. Over the long term, you won't be able to make up the short stack losses later in the game when it is deeper. Unfortunately, to get it in good, you can only play hands that are strong enough to commit to pre-flop. TT+, AQ+, AJs+ is a good starting default range. You can always look for spots to widen your range, but the reality is that the game you're playing in dictates this strategy. So, you have to wait a long time for hands. When you get one, you can raise 10x. One caller will give you a SPR of 2 which is great for you. Two callers and your SPR is 1.33 which is great also. If your PFR is resulting in more than 2 callers, then you have to increase your PFR sizing. If you get over two callers, your equity gets too small.

After you get your one or two callers, you'll be able to commit after most flops. Then either shove flop, or bet flop/shove turn.

Bottom line: This game can only be beat with 60%+ PF equity against opponents range when short stacked. This means you have to be VERY patient. You may play an entire session only getting it in once and losing, so you never get to double up. If you want to beat the game long term, I don't know any other way.

you are way overthinking the average 1/2 homegame players. they won't notice tricky play, or pay attention to betsizing, pot odds, fold equity.... dumb it down and play ABC against the "homies."

You're playing a table full of stations and you're afraid to overbet???

This is too general. Just watch the flow of the game and come up with a sensible strategy.

Presumably because you refer to SPR, then like me, you like the style of play advocated in Professional NLHE. But in a game like this I'd be trying to see cheap flops in position with medium/small prs, suited gap connectors, suited aces etc... No point in cbetting into 3+ people if we raise it up and then miss.

Read the Ed Miller article on optimal sstack strat...I sstack a 50bb pretty much all my sessions to start, as it keeps me from spazzing for 150bb before I have a solid read on my table.

Bottom-line: you're always raising or folding preflop if the action folds to you, {77+, AQ+}. If there's one open ahead, you 3! 3.5x-4x the open with TT+, AK. You either cbet flop or shove depending on how many callers, board texture (ie. cbet all but worst boards like AKo on 456ccc and you have no club).

EDIT: calling raises with 22-66, even IP, has no value in this game because at 50bb you're never getting the correct odds to setmine. Dump all A2-AJ, and some AQ depending on in-game considerations....also, absolutely no sc's/one-gappers ESP. OOP but even IP.

That being said, rules are made to be broken, and if the game is ultra loose-passive you may be able to open-limp the BU with lower pp's, some sc's like T9+...still, not optimal. Better to go for red-line profit and stick to raise, cbet/shove, collect maney.

It's not the players you have to be concerned with, it's the math. Your pot odds and implied odds simply don't exist in a short stack game for many hands you would normally like to play when 100bb deep.

Here's a typical situation:

Effective stacks are 50bb. If you call a 3x raise from the button with T9s from one opponent, the pot is 7.5bb. If you flop an OESD and your opponent c-bets pot, you would need to call 7.5bb to win the 15bb in the pot, plus potentially the 39.5bb you opponent has left. You're getting about 7:1 if we can count on the opponent stacking off. If the turn is a brick, the pot is 22.5bb. If your opponent bets pot, you have to call 22bb to win the pot of 22.5bb plus potentially your opponents remaining 17.5bb. You're getting 1.8:1 under the most optimistic circumstances and cannot continue. Of course your odds are worse if you opponent shoves turn. With 2 opponents and pot size bets you're getting about 3:1 on the turn and can't continue. With 3 opponents, all calling pot size PF and flop bets, all the money goes in on the flop, and you're getting 4:1 and can't continue. And all of these scenarios assume getting all opponents stacks in 100% of the time.


Bottom line: If you play drawing hands in a short stacked game, you will end up putting in 10%+ of your stack by the flop, flop a made hand less than 1.3% of the time, and folding the turn when you flop the draw. You cannot beat a short stacked game playing drawing hands.