This situation came up yesterday at the Borgata in a 2-5 NL hold'em game I wanted to get the forum's thoughts on how it should be played. I'm particularly interested in (a) did I play the hand correctly, and (b) if not, how could I have played the turn differently to increase my chances of seeing the river for cheaper. Thanks in advance.

Setting: Live 2-5 at the Borgata. Full table. 4 key players in hand. All players in hand seemed competent. Lots of hands have been getting limped around with substantial post-flop play. Also has been a decent mix of raising pre-flop from 15-45. Nothing too crazy.

Pre-flop: UTG limps. I am UTG+1 with Jh10h. I limp. Guy to my left raises to 15. Eventually there are 5 callers. So $90 in pot. Key players are BB, me (UTG+1), UTG+2 (who is initial re-raiser), and UTG+3.

[Effective stacks for 4 key players: BB=$1,500; Me=$1,000; UTG+2=~$600; UTG+3=~$760.]

Flop: Flop is 8h9h3s. BB bets $30 into $90. I call. UTG+2 raises to $130. UTG+3 calls the re-raise. BB calls. I call. $610 in pot.

Turn: 2c. BB checks. I check. UTG+2 (initial re-raiser) pushes all-in for $462. (To this point I had not seen him show a hand.) UTG+3 thinks for a long time -- like 5 minutes -- talking out loud about how he believes the UTG+2 but doesn't think he can lay it down. Etc. (At this point I'm putting him on 88 for middle set or, less likely, but possible, AhKh. He eventually calls, leaving him about $160 left in his stack. BB insta-folds. I think for a long time, doing the pot odds. If I decide to play the hand I think my only play is to push all-in to maximize value, cause the river heart might freeze UTG+3 and I lose that money. (Not pushing could save me that money if the board pairs on the river, but that's less of a concern I think.) So there is $1534 in the pot. Adding in the $160 UTG+3 has left, since I would be pushing all-in, results in a pot of $1694. And I, effectively, have to "call" $622. That is 2.7:1. (I actually had figured 2.8:1 in my head at the time, but that's immaterial.) If they each have a set, one has a set and the other 2-pair, or just one has a set or two pair, I pretty much have 13 outs. (7 hearts not pairing the board and 6 other straight cards. That's roughly (using the rule of 2 and 4) 28% to win, so I need approx. 2.6:1 to call. So the math is just there. But, if I am wrong and one has over-hearts I could be drawing to just 8 outs, or fewer (the straight cards, since two make my straight-flush -- though somenoe could have or folded the Qh or 7h). I decided to fold.

River: Qh. Oops. Initial re-raiser had two pair and UTG+3 had a set of eights. (BB who folded had Kh9x.) UTG+3 wins pot.

Thoughts on how I should have played it? Obviously I am disappointed at how it turned out, but really am more interested in other ways to play the hand/if it was played correctly. For example, should I bet $200 (1/3 the pot) on the turn and hope no one raises over the top? If they do not, I get to see the river. And if they do I am priced in to a call.

Thanks.

Calling the flop the first time is fine because there are multiple people left to act behind you but please god shove after utg+3 reraises and BB calls. You have a huge draw and with the amount of money in the pot at this point it doesn't even matter if people fold, and if they call they likely have a set which you're 50/50 with anyways, also if you hit your draw on the turn, it'll likely slow down sets a lot because with 4 people seeing a turn, it's highly unlikely that at least one of them didn't hit one of the draws out there.

Edit: Didn't realize how deep you were, probably opt for a huge reraise on the flop rather than shove since a shove would be a little awkward and on turn you need to call with the kind of odds you're getting, and don't think about what other people may have folded, it doesn't factor into your decision when looking at your outs (unless you think they also had a flush draw).

I usually fold the flop and wait for a better spot.

I don't *hate* calling the initial flop bet, although I like raising it up to clear up your flush draw outs.

Once you call the first bet, PLEASE put in a big raise when it gets back to you.

As played, just call the turn. Nobody is folding for another $160 either here or on the river, so save yourself the $160 when you miss and shove the rest in on any 7, Q or heart (even the ones that pair the board).

Now that I see it in writing I realize that it was a pretty poor decision by me not to raise the flop, especially when it got back me. Chalk it up to the process of learning; I suppose it's better to learn from money not won than money lost -- though that's small consolation. Thanks very much for the responses.

The real question is what class are u a clown in since u seem to be taking this pokers thing pretty seriously?

Poker is like my ritalin.

exactly

I agree. I like 3 betting on the flop. You are pretty much playing your hand face up here if you don't. The pfr easily has 2 pair (like you said), overpair, or a draw. He could see the weak bet by the BB, then your call and decide to try to take the pot down with a raise....which I would too since there is a lot of weakness from you both. You have anough FE to get the pfr out of the pot on the flop. Given how UTG+3 just called i would've put him on 2 pair, a set, or a draw. He might be able to get away from 22 here, so that just leaves 88 and 99 for hands he wouldn't fold....probably not 22 either.

I'm raising this flop and jamming any turn pretty much. You could also take the line of calling the 2nd raise on the flop and jamming the turn. I like both of these lines more than what happened. Any or straight completing card could easily kill your action since your playing your hand as an obvious draw.

Oh my- push all in after flop raise!!!!!!





!

yes. i agree with this.

Why? If your ESPN, or pattern mapper, is tuned in you'd know the straight flush is coming. You have tons of FE here on the flop, so you could definitely get a decent amount of hands folded out and win the pot..except for sets...and you have like 300 outs or so.

it's a draw

so, omg...it's a draw...better lay this down and not play it hard/fast and see if i can steal right here/get a fold on later streets or end up with the best of it?

when the action gets back to you pf I would have bombed it... raise to whatever is enough to make sure you don't spark a chain reaction of calls in case the first guy calls. then bet any flop against one or two players. raise to $15 after 2 limps is just so unlikely to be a premium hand... playing a drawing hand in such a bloated pot is so marginal, you won't have much implied odds when you flop a draw and the pot is too big to have much FE... so much more profitable instead to make a move that will net you ~$90 a high percentage of the time.

I really like this line....especially since we are in EP, so it looks like a monster limp r/r. Thanks soah

ok. yes, now we're on the same page. they're called draws for a reason: because they're draws.

Do you not play any draws? Or do you play them only when you are getting correct odds...and if so, which ones? I like a shove on the flop after the original pfr raises. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but you obviously missed mine.