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OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V

08-04-2022 , 05:22 AM
Hey guys, spot from a recent session wanted to know if just too loose or decently played, also what to do on turn

1/3 at local casino
Have been playing at this table for about 2 hours now, mix of terrible players and very competent ones
H - ~$800 in stack, ~266bb to start the hand, has been playing solid for a majority of the session, only shown down strong hands
V - ~$700 in stack, ~233bb eff stack, either best or 2nd best at the table and has taken down a lot of pots without showing with aggression IP, although at showdown has almost always had the winner

OTTH

Hero opens to $15 in HJ with T9
V 3! to $55 on BU
Folds back to hero, hero calls
Pot $113

Flop T26

Hero checks in flow
V bets $50
Hero calls
Pot $213

Turn 4

Hero checks
V bets $110
Hero ?
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 05:32 AM
I'm not a big fan of the call Preflop since you are out of Position. Even this deep. I'd prefer Pockets and Axs that can flop the (virtual) nuts more easy.

As played you are in a tough Spot on the Turn. It's not an obvious board vor V to 2nd barrel, but wit your read that he's able to be agressive IP you can't fold just yet. Call Turn and pray that he gives up his bluffs by the River.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 05:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilt4Deception
I'm not a big fan of the call Preflop since you are out of Position. Even this deep. I'd prefer Pockets and Axs that can flop the (virtual) nuts more easy.

As played you are in a tough Spot on the Turn. It's not an obvious board vor V to 2nd barrel, but wit your read that he's able to be agressive IP you can't fold just yet. Call Turn and pray that he gives up his bluffs by the River.
Is T9s not good enough on a wide variety of boards to justify a flat OOP 250+bbs deep? Genuinely curious, but yeah pockets and Axs obviously better to hold most likely

V could theoretically double barrel after picking up a diamond draw on the turn no?
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 05:48 AM
It sucks being oop against someone you know is capable of making moves but you are just compounding a trivial fold into a rapidly growing mistake. I like a 4bet over calling pre but I would probably do neither and fold.

As played its a trivial calldown. You called oop against a good player and were lucky to hit top pair so why call pre if you thought about folding when you hit your hand this hard?

I believe its 20.5 to 1 to hit 2 pair or better on the flop. I don't know the math on what the odds are to hit top pair with T9 but it certainly doesn't happen a whole lot either. Fold pre, lose 15 bux and find a better spot.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
It sucks being oop against someone you know is capable of making moves but you are just compounding a trivial fold into a rapidly growing mistake. I like a 4bet over calling pre but I would probably do neither and fold.

As played its a trivial calldown. You called oop against a good player and were lucky to hit top pair so why call pre if you thought about folding when you hit your hand this hard?

I believe its 20.5 to 1 to hit 2 pair or better on the flop. I don't know the math on what the odds are to hit top pair with T9 but it certainly doesn't happen a whole lot either. Fold pre, lose 15 bux and find a better spot.
Is just playing tight is right poker the way to go live at 1/3? Feels like you will get exploited by regs but I guess the solution is just to only play hands that will be better than what they have most of the time.

It is hard to fold such a pretty hand preflop in T9s
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 06:14 AM
So ... I think it is really difficult to have a profitable out of position 3 bet calling strategy.
That is even more so when you characterize villain as competent reg and maybe the best player at the table.
A good player with position and initiative should make it difficult for you to show down marginal 1 pair hands.
It is also a big 3 bet, almost 20bb.
Personally, I would lean toward overfolding, pre-flop.

On the other hand, what "they" say is, it doesn't have to be very profitable (to call the 3 bet), it just has to be more profitable than folding the 15$ you already put in the pot. If you are going to call, a little medium suited connector is not a bad hand to call with.

Keep in mind though, with a hand like this, we are really looking to flop 2p or better, or a strong draw.
Flopping 1 pair, even if it is top pair, just leads to trouble. This isn't top-pair/weak kicker, this is "Weak-top-pair/weak kicker." Not the kind of hand we want to get in the habit of calling 3 barrels with. BTW, with the betting so far, a pot sized bet on the river is all in for villain, so you could be facing a shove on the river.

If his 3 betting range is 99+/Axs/ATBs/AQ, +/-
You are in a lot of trouble if he has an overpair, Tens, or ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs, That is 46 combos.
and you are beating 62 combos, and you have to dodge any A,K,Q,J on the river.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikTG
Is just playing tight is right poker the way to go live at 1/3? Feels like you will get exploited by regs but I guess the solution is just to only play hands that will be better than what they have most of the time.

It is hard to fold such a pretty hand preflop in T9s

It is fine to play loose in many situations.
If the pot is unopened you can have loose opening ranges.
If the pot is limped you can raise limpers with a wide range and you can even have a limp-behind range in position.
If you have good position and the open raiser has a wide open range, you can 3 bet pretty wide to iso, or get him to fold.
You can raise a steal raiser from the blinds with a loose/wide range.

Cold-calling a 3 bet out of position is not the time to be loose, imo.
We are looking for good situations. This is a good situation for the BN 3 bettor, not for you.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum1111
So ... I think it is really difficult to have a profitable out of position 3 bet calling strategy.
That is even more so when you characterize villain as competent reg and maybe the best player at the table.
A good player with position and initiative should make it difficult for you to show down marginal 1 pair hands.
It is also a big 3 bet, almost 20bb.
Personally, I would lean toward overfolding, pre-flop.

On the other hand, what "they" say is, it doesn't have to be very profitable (to call the 3 bet), it just has to be more profitable than folding the 15$ you already put in the pot. If you are going to call, a little medium suited connector is not a bad hand to call with.

Keep in mind though, with a hand like this, we are really looking to flop 2p or better, or a strong draw.
Flopping 1 pair, even if it is top pair, just leads to trouble. This isn't top-pair/weak kicker, this is "Weak-top-pair/weak kicker." Not the kind of hand we want to get in the habit of calling 3 barrels with. BTW, with the betting so far, a pot sized bet on the river is all in for villain, so you could be facing a shove on the river.

If his 3 betting range is 99+/Axs/ATBs/AQ, +/-
You are in a lot of trouble if he has an overpair, Tens, or ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs, That is 46 combos.
and you are beating 62 combos, and you have to dodge any A,K,Q,J on the river.
Thank you for the detailed comment! Love seeing these

One thing I am unsure of is if the board runs out clean for us and the villain triple barrels, do we ever fold?

Also, I am not sure if V triple barrels his whole 3b range on such a dry board.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote
08-04-2022 , 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikTG
Is just playing tight is right poker the way to go live at 1/3? Feels like you will get exploited by regs but I guess the solution is just to only play hands that will be better than what they have most of the time.

It is hard to fold such a pretty hand preflop in T9s
No. There isn't a one situation fits all spot in poker. Let's change various dynamics but keep the hands the same:

You open with T9s and an OMC that is raising only QQ-AA 3 bets you. Calling to crack his hand is a lot more appealing but I would still say you'd need more stack depth.

You open with T9s and a weak tight who plays fit or fold 3 bets you. Now you can potentially call knowing you can push him off his hand on certain boards and also hit your hand on top of that.

V you describe opens from the HJ and you 3bet T9s from the btn. Perfectly fine play.

Your original hand is a combination of bad situations. V could be raising you with anything. He's smart enough to put you on a hand and play accordingly. He's probably not going to pay you off if you hit, he's going to put a huge amount of pressure on you where you have no idea what he has and on top of all of this he has position when you are fairly deep. You don't need a solver to tell you to find a better spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikTG
Also, I am not sure if V triple barrels his whole 3b range on such a dry board.
Just another reason not to call pre.
OOP in 3bet pot w/ top pair facing aggression vs competent V Quote

      
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