No need to apologize. Your tone was a bit harsh, but I didn't take it to heart. And I certainly appreciate the kind words in this post (and also from En09 and venice).

I was sitting at the table at the V two nights ago when this hand happened:

One or two limps, table LAg in MP1 raises to $9, middle aged guy wearing a suit who has been playing very tight raises to $27, folds to me on the button with some trash, I fold, SB raises to $75 (leaving $100-110 behind) folds back around to the suit who has the SB covered. He goes into the tank for a while and calls. SB shoves the ragged flop, suit calls, and we see SB with AA and the suit with KK.

SB is stacking his chips and says to me, "why did he think so long? That was an easy call for him, right? I mean, I call immediately there."

I said, "uh, it was a trivially easy fold."

He says, "no way."

I said, "be honest with yourself for a minute and answer these questions, OK?"

He says, "ok."

I said, "isn't it true you would have called (as opposed to 4 betting) with AK?"

He goes, "yeah, sure."

I say, "and isn't it also true that you would have called with QQ?"

He says, "absolutely."

I say, "see why it was a fold for him, then?"

SB says, "wow, holy ****," and we shared a laugh.

Last night, there was a guy sitting to my right who had a bet sizing tell--he literally varied the size of his bets with the strength of his hand. He opens UTG to $15, which is the biggest bet I have seen him make so far (I have seen him take QQ to showdown after raising to $10). I am UTG+1 and I have AK. I fold, it folds back around to him, and I say, please show me your cards, and he shows AA.

The point of these stories is simply that there are situations where many villains simply do not have a range. I will admit the validity of Percula's changing my "most players," to "many players," but the fact remains is that a subset of these players are simply incapable of shoving preflop with less than AA, either because of the situation or because of their proclivities.

In fact, these games are so passive in general that they are not making a mistake to play that tight.

Watch how often you see AA v. KK play out with the guy holding KK having stopped the preflop action and then passively stacking off post flop. Keep a count of how often you see that play versus how often you see 100bb stacks go in pre.

In a different thread I said that the Vegas strip casino games are playing like a weird hybrid of online aggression and live passivity. The key to playing KK successfully in these games is simply to be eager to stack it off against the few decent players with a live game background, most of the guys who play like internet players, and be able to fold it to people who are doing things like cold 4 betting or who play ridiculously passive in general but are now willing to ship 100bb aipf.

I also agree with the poster who said that you can stack it off every time and be a solid winner. But there is no reason to unthinkingly stack it off when you are faced with the spots that it is a clear fold. A part of the edge you can bring to these games is to win the battle of the coolers.

I understand completely. Passive players sit there all day then get frisky.

Check this out, I had KK UTG I bet 25 loose player 3bets me to 75, Sb shoves for 400 doctor dude. Action comes back on me, I come off as an idiot on the forums but in real life I have to make real decisions. I didn't call instantly. I stare at the doctor dude because I'm worried he has AA. I look at the loose guy who is a black jack player. Looked back at the doctor dude he smiled and is staring back at me. I say "I'm All In" black jack player calls. I end up losing the hand to trip 9's from the black jack player, doctor guy has QQ.

The table was mad at me because they said I slow rolled. But I told the table I have never folded KK pre. But if I soul read and fold and it was the right decision. That means your a great player.

I didn't see that Empathy was playing in Vegas. I treat nearly all Vegas players as waiting for the nuts, especially if they have grey hair and the sun is still up. However you have to cut if off somewhere and I prefer the stacks to be deeper than 100bb before I start playing KK cautiously.

This reminds me of a 2009 10am game at the MGM, 1/2 nl. I had 110$ and opened KK utg for 10$. MP who fit the description above 3bet me to 25$, folded back to me and I call. Flop came 10 6s 2s. and I led for 25$. He immediately shoves. I thought that was odd for him to play QQ or JJ so confidently, I call and he shows me a set of tens. I think I played it fine for that stack size.

My many game is NL, prefer deep stacked, locally I play 1/2 to 5/10 NL+ in private games, rarely play 2/3 to 5/10 SL at CAZ, when in LV or LA I play 5/10+ which is typically between 4-6 weeks spread out throughout the year.

I am well past the beginner stage, and came to and pushed for this forum to help other players and to hopefully learn something too.

As far as I tell you are here to lie, insult and pump your fantasy of being a poker pro, when in fact you most likely work in a fast joint and have to hide your phone because you are constantly posting on here instead of doing your job.

Why you did not get a ban for your attack on a very well respected mod is beyond me.

My bad for feeding the troll...

Now that's a born coach. Even a step away from the tables he can't abstain from imparting wisdom!

Seems fine but why not just pre flop shove for a 75 raise...utg is it really different? Plus if your read is so solid that they are only waiting for the nuts.... When he shoves you can fold kk face up right? Level...

I think he folds his tens to a pf shove. Then again, that can justify any time you don't jam the big pair and get snapped. VS the extra value you get by taking the flop.

I stand corrected you are a season vet. Trust me, when you speak I listen. I apologized to mpethybridge. I did not know he was a mod. As a matter of fact I didn't even see his name until I pressed send. Then I remembered his redline post.

First and foremost I'm not a liar. I only said I was a pro because I don't have a job. I'm just a gambler who wants to be a pro. I have never been properly rolled. I'm a noob, look at my join date. I'm still trying to build a solid roll. What have I lied about on here? Nothing, don't even try to state something I lied about. I love it here on 2+2 I'm here to meet friends and learn. I have failed to make any friends on here nobody seems to like new blood around here. I'm just a passionate player about my craft. Thanks for your input. That goes to any and everyone on these boards.

I'm just misunderstood, I come from a different culture then most on this forum. But you know what that does not matter since we all have the same interest. That's poker folks.

Yes you are. You tell everyone here that you are a n00b that doesn't know what he is doing and have stopped posting in strat threads as a result... You tell everyone you are going to get a real job... I am sure if I was willing to waste a hour or so searching on it I could find a few more, but those are the two that stand out in my mind.

The idea its culture is crazy unless your culture is based on abuse, deception and being less than truthful. The idea that its because you are "new blood" is likewise crazy, this is a beginners forum where they are more welcome than anywhere... well expect when n00bs on here and boost about being a pro, argues with just about everyone, is insulting and overall an irritation, which pretty much sums you up.

How many times have people told you to shut up and listen instead of spewing all of your BS. If any of what you say about wanting to better yourself as a poker player is true, then stop posting "answers" and start asking questions or better yet just read and understand, and stop arguing with anyone that does not meet your idea on a given subject.

It truly amazing when you get your little bans, the forum suddenly runs smoothly, threads don't get derailed. People enjoy themselves for the most. Then wham you are back spouting your nonsense, insults, boosts and lies.

See I was being nice but now I'm mad. I'm really steaming inside. Like I said back in january you can't be a real pro unless you exclusively play 5/10+. Your 30 year career and you still play 1/2,seems like you need more help sir. 30 years is not enough.

I'm a noob because I don't have the bankroll to prove I'm a good player. Anybody that does not play 5/10+ exclusively is just playing themselves. You been playing poker for 30 years so that means I'm arguing with a NIT. No way your not 50+. You want to pick on me, I stick out like a sore thumb. I'm so easy to pick on because I actually try to be nice on here.

I have the right to speak my mind about poker I have loss thousands and made thousands. Losing hurts so I know what not to do. I'm advanced noob, I'm like a young college kid with a poker degree. I know how to play 2/5. Nobody can tell me any different.

Bye

The other week a guy who has been raising preflop quite a lot raises, I 3bet with QQ, AK coldcalls, and then the original guy ships. Now it wasn't for 100 BBs, probably more like only 70 BB or so. But he shows up with T9s.

The week before that a guy opens, I 3bet with AA, and then he shoves. Again, probably only for 70 BB or so. But he shows up with 66.

And so on. I'm guessing once we start dealing with a BI ($300 at my 1/3 game, so 100 BB) then maybe a preflop all-in does start to involve AA pretty much. But less than that, meh, AA ain't a necessity.

I agree with mpthey's views on this in general, but you are correct that the lower the stacks get, the less often AA shows up in the preflop all-ins.

For example, if someone limp reraises me pf when they have a stack 200 bbs deep, I am going to more heavily weight AA in their range than if someone limp reraises all in for a stack of 50 bbs. Sure, QQ and AK (and worse!) are possible in each scenario, but most normal villains start clinching up they deeper they get.

I folded KK post flop on a J high board a couple of weeks back. My image was tight, and I had not been very active preflop in the first couple of hours. I catch KK on the CO with 1 limper, and bump it to $25 (2/5 game). The big stack at the table ($900, has me covered by $150), raises to $55. (Note: villain had also mentioned leaving shortly.)

This was a tough spot, as he was very active, and often raising any ace from the button. At the same time, he was aware enough to know that I was playing tight, and that I had the only stack that could really hurt him. The near min-raise was also very suspicious, as his other pf raises were usually 3x the open. I decided I was deep enough to set mine, and called.
Flop was jack high, rainbow, I check, he bets $100. Based on his usual postflop betting style, I expected to be all in on the river with just one pair if I continued to call, tanked a few seconds, and let this one go.

The villain stares at me a few seconds, and says something about me making a tough fold. I said it was, but oh well. He flips over the AA.
He quizzed me right before he left, and was certain I had folded KK. I never did confirm or deny.

Oddly enough, I have forced villains to fold KK three times recently, all on the flop, when I was holding AK that bricked. In all cases we were fairly deep, and the villains are not used to someone aggressively playing back with AK, and ended up clinching and folding the flop. Had the stacks been more shallow, I am sure I would have been 4bet pre.

I 100% agree with this, which is why my posts in this thread have specified 100bb stacks at all times. Hell, I have shipped 50bbs as light as ATs and 77 half a dozen times at least since getting here.

_________________

I saw another KK v. AA while playing 2/5 Saturday night. Guy (V1) who has been running like God is up maybe 4 buy ins. Guy to his right (V2) raises to 20. V1 3 bets to 60. V3 on the CO cold 4 bets to 140. V2 folds, V1 shoves, V3 tanks and calls.

They flip over their hands and V1 has red aces, V3 has black kings. Flop is QsJsTs and I lol and say to V3 "Outs galore", turn is a brick but the river is a spade and V3 sucks out.

V1 then looks over at V3 as the dealer is shipping it to V3 and says, Jesus Christ, what did you think i had when I put you all in for $540?"

My end of the table cracks up, and V3 says, "I am sorry, I am not good enough to fold kings. But you wanted the call, right?"

Guy to the left of me says to V1, "why did you start criticizing his call only after he sucked out?"

My end of the table cracks up again, and V3 looks over at me and says, "I just can't do it. I can't fold kings preflop. Can you fold kings preflop?" I just smiled, thought of this thread, and decided to post the story.

I think this is a non-cooler as to V1 that was complicated by the presence of V2.

1/3, second or third orbit. Hero ~110BB, villains cover.

V2 is a good LAG, seems to view V1 and Hero as competent TAG based on a couple years of sporadic sessions worth of history.

V1 is in Hero's estimation borderline tight, borderline aggressive, and borderline good. Most pertinently, V1 definitely sees Hero as being inordinately snug after a couple of frankly just plain card-dead sessions - the week prior V1 folded to about four 3bets in the span of half an hour, each time with an 'easy game' and a smirk. After he tipped his thought process the first time, the next three obviously came light but he just stuck with his rock with a monster read and I didn't have to show down.

Hero is on button with KK. V1 limps UTG+1, two more limpers, V2 raises to 4BB in HJ, CO calls, Hero 3bets to 20BB, V1 calls, limpers fold. V2 tanks, cuts chips, asks V1 how much he's got back, acts surprised once he looks over the table and sees that Hero and not V1 is the reraiser, and flats pretty quickly thereafter. CO folds.

Flop comes J43 two clubs. Check, check, Hero bets 50BB, CRAI, fold, call, no help. Does V1 just always have aces here given cold call of 3bet and flop check given perceived image of Hero? How sure do I have to be given SPR etc.?

Note that this read couldn't be any more different than the older woman cited above, or anyone else to whom we would seriously discuss folding KK with 100 BB stacks.

Villain 1: relatively passive, reg, playing for fun
Villain 2: very loose, passive player, call station
Villain 3: good friend, strong, loose, aggro player

1/2 NL (9 handed)
UTG ($350) - HERO
EP ($250) - V3
EP+1($250)
MP ($250) - V1
MP+1 ($800)
CO ($500) - V2
Button ($300)
SB ($200)
BB ($200)

Hero is dealt K K

(Not mentioned players all fold)
Hero raises to $10
V3 Calls $10
V1 Raises to $35
V2 Raises $65 to $100
3 Folds
Hero ???

So the first place i probably messed up on is by calling here. Raise from V2 seemed way too strong and i figured that both V1 and V2 at least had something like AA, AK, KK, QQ. So heres how action plays out, I prolly shoulda shoved here but oops

Hero Calls
V3 Folds
V1 Folds

Pot: $245
Flop: QJ8

At this point, i feel like I shouldnt have let the pot ever get to this as now QQ, JJ, AA all wreck me so what can i do....

Hero Checks
V2 Bets $100
Hero ?????

sigh fold.

Villian May be 3 betting with AK, but still. Doubt hes doing it with 10's - 2's. At this point your screwed. Shoulda Just shipped preflop

Ouch. Bad flop if you were ahead your behind now certainly. Fold as played. I'm shoving pre tho.

Please, how can you call pre? Pre you made all your mistakes because now, you have 150 left with a 250$. He bets 100 what is actually your allin, so you getting realistic 150:400. He doesn't have to have AK or AQs very often or something weired to make this +EV for you. I would go allin and kicking myself in my a... because I didnt do it pre.

Put them in the KK containment thread.

When was the last time you remember seeing a "loose, passive" player 3 bet AK preflop? "AK is a drawing hand!", "Anna Kournikova", blah blah blah.

He doesn't have AK here.

In theory, shoving pre is going to fold out stuff you'd like to keep in like QQ and JJ. In practice, loose players aren't folding QQ, maybe JJ. But i don't think JJ is ever in V2's range.

I suspect his 3bet range is precisely QQ+, maybe even KK+. That makes it good to shove pre, but not because we're ahead. We want value from QQ even if an ace flops.

I'm also OK with flatting pre and folding this flop to a passive player, although i probably wouldn't do it at the table.

I know i messed up, should a jammed pre... o well...

Hero folds
Shows KK
Villain shows 66
V1 says he had QQ

I dont run too good with KK... /thread

"Loose passive" players aren't semibluffing 66 preflop here, obv. Just a bad read that you've since refined or what?