5/10 frnl 120 bb effective. UTG 60 yo man limps. UTG+1 (Asian 50yo) Iso's to 50, folds to our SB, we have JTcc and we call, limper calls, 3 way to the flop. 9c8s3c. we check, utg checks, utg+1 cbets to 90, we c/r to 250, UTG stares us down like he wants to fight, he calls and cbettor calls. Turn 6d. Pot 915. We have 900. We jam. Are there other decent options?

We have OESD+FD -not OESFD like the title says.

There are no other options.

this is a really bad turn for us. it doesn't complete very many draws in our range and doesnt improve any made hands we c/r the flop with, meaning we are repping essentially the same value range + 57cc/68cc. the worst part, however, is that with our actual hand, the turn card improves all of the combo draws that UTG would c/c our c/r with (87cc, 86cc, 76cc, 56cc, 57cc) and A7cc/A6cc, which is he now never folding and all are ahead of us, not to mention the combos of 98s/33 which he would play this way sometimes (and discount 89o/88/99 vs unknown UTG 60yo limper). this is too tight of a range for UTG c/c otf almost certainly, but the point is that there are a lot of hands UTG has which are now never folding/beating us. plus, UTG1 is still left to act behind with all OPs in his range and AKcc/AQcc/KQcc.

all that being said, i still think its a jam and dont think there are that many good outcomes for us after checking. vs these tight ranges we ~breakeven on a jam getting it in 3way 100% of the time, and once you start adding any folds in then we start profiting

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

15,960 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 9836

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
JcTc	24.55%	3,918	0
8c7c, 8c6c, 7c6c, 5c6c, 5c7c, 33, 8x9x, Ac2c-Ac7c	44.12%	7,041	0
AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AcKc,AcQc, KcQc	31.33%	5,001	0

i think your c/raise size should be bigger due to eff stack sizes... i dont think villain folds most of his flop cbetting range on this board to a small flop c/raise plus if he calls the stacks are really weird. i think we also achieve the same amount of fold eq on turn when we shove had we raised flop bigger and now also win more money.

Check/raise flop bigger to 325-400 imo with the plan to shove most turns. Feel like your sizing just says "I have
a draw."

once you raised flop, given stacks can't see what else you can do.

I'd probably raise flop a little bigger..

Flop check/raise is too small, there is $380 in the pot and he has to call $160, we're giving him too good a price when he has a draw, and we are balancing here with our big hands which want money in the pot fast, especially out of position. Go to $360, jam turn.

anything other than shoving seems crazy. He can fold better FDs and occasionally he has TT/JJ and folds. Sizing needs to be a touch bigger on flop imo.

It pains me to say this but.... fold pre.

As played all in.

Yeah.

mehhhhh i dont fold pre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4t3EG8Pnco

I understand reasons for going larger otf. With that said, that gives us less fe ott and we don't get better FD's out if we have 600 left ott. More otf = less fe ott. I kinda like a flop lead, which only a freidn has mentioned outside the forums, surprised nobody said lead itt.

lmfao!

i really like flop leads but i dont think it is the best play in this hand due to a bunch of things. i think w/ ur stack size and passiveness of opponents a flop c/raise is the best play.

I love JTs as much as the next guy, but I think it's a 3bet/fold preflop unless the guys are particularly bad. As played, slightly larger on the flop. Jam turn.

310 stuff turn. Never folding pre unless I though lrr was coming. 3 bet pre is fine nothing else to this hand.

Funny jalen clip, but Im also in the strongly considering folding pre camp based on stack size and described villains as well as pos. Dont like our hand vs. Old man utg limp and old asian man utg+1 iso range while we are in sb w/120bbs. As played I dont think thers much discussion on turn.

however a more interesting convo maybe pros and cons for leading flop.

LOL awesome.

Yeah, slightly bigger otf, close eyes and jam turn

Agree with this as well. If you aren't prepared to play for stacks with this hand OOP post flop once we hit gin, then you should be folding pre.

Are we stuffing turns of Qh, 7h, any club as well?

Yes. Unless you think a smaller bet gets less credit.

how often does 1 of the 2 villains have the nfd?

Ran a bunch of numbers and it appears as though, as played the turn jam is fine.
Obviously the more times that we can get both players to fold, the more +EV our shove becomes. Having one player call is usually going to be a wash, and both players calling is going to be relatively bad.

With that said, I don't think the number of times these scenarios happening is going to fluctuate dramatically enough to make our turn play really +EV/really -EV at this point given the current action. What I mean is, let's say we have BothPlayersFold%/OnePlayerCall%/TwoPlayersCall%. I think at this point roughly we're looking at 10-30%/40-80%/10-30%.

If we were looking at this hand from the flop, and looking to make the plays that would be the most profitable, having both players eventually fold/getting a bigger portion of the money in otf when our equity is higher, I think we always accomplish both raising bigger otf (as a few people have said.)

OTF Pot $160 ($1150 effective)
Vil 2 Bets $90
One Flop caller
Hero Raises to $325 Turn Pot= $810/$900 Turn All-in Bet =$725
Hero Raises to $350 Turn Pot= $860/$950 Turn All-in Bet =$700
Hero Raises to $375 Turn Pot= $910/$1000 Turn All-in Bet =$675
Hero Raises to $400 Turn Pot= $960/$1050 Turn All-in Bet =$650

Two Flop Callers (obv Turn All-in is the same)
Hero Raises to $325 Turn Pot=$1135 Turn All-in Bet =$725
Hero Raises to $350 Turn Pot=$1210 Turn All-in Bet =$700
Hero Raises to $375 Turn Pot=$1285 Turn All-in Bet =$675
Hero Raises to $400 Turn Pot=$1360 Turn All-in Bet =$650

I think anywhere from $325-$375 works really nicely; if I had to pick one let's say $340. This is going to make the flop call a nice even 10 $25 chips, and the turn shove a greasy $710, maximizing some of the good spots you get into.

(spent way too much time on this; but wanted to crunch down a multiway pot. Hope this helps. Any insight on my logic definitely welcome.)

Awesome, and yes