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Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Oceans 11 2/3: ATs

12-28-2012 , 01:22 AM
Folded to me and I raise to $15 with AsTs in the hijack. The CO (young white kid on the nitty side) coldcalls, as does the BB. 3 ways, effective stacks around 100 BB.

Flop 2s 3s 7c. BB checks, I bet $30, CO calls, BB folds. HU for $100 or so.

Turn 6d. I . . . ?
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 01:26 AM
Bet $50 and evaluate. If he's on nitty side, he's going to let it go. Nits are not going to be playing hands which smash the board.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 01:42 AM
bad card to continue barreling. does not strengthen your perceived range and hits your opponent's. depends on whether you think he floats otf light and then releases to further aggression.

Your image is also important here.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 03:48 AM
I say check the turn. Since he is nitty what is his cold call range? Probably pretty wide I would say. I want to check the turn and see what kind of bet he makes(if he makes one at all). He may make a terrible bet ott that we can float and see a river card. We may even pick up some river cards that let us bluff him off a hand, although it will be a long shot considering the stack to pot ratio is pretty small with a nit otr. If he gives you good odds with a poor turn bet though I think you can check call and see the river.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 04:38 AM
I Barrel him, i doubt he slow rolled a set against flush and straight draws otf multi way. Nitty so 45s is unlikely. Why let him set the price for the turn? How do you get paid on the river if you check call the turn? I think you have quite a bit of FE.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 04:46 AM
Tank check vs most opponents.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 07:22 AM
If we were deeper I'd check-raise to get a fold, but stack sizes are really ackward here; any check-raise just leaves villain with less than a pot-sized bet left so he might just go with any hand. The pre-flop raiser c-bet into two people, and a nitty player called with one person behind him to act - probably not much FE here.

So I just check and hope to get a free card and call if villain bets small enough - if villain bets anything close to half-pot or more it's a fold (marginally priced in but it's hard to make much on the river if we make our hand when the obvious draw comes in).
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 07:39 AM
Vs. this type of villain I like a barrel here. We have the nut flush draw and 2 overs if he has something like 88 or 99. And if a card like a king or queen hits the river I'm probably firing again for like half pot. I hate c/c'ing, and c/f'ing is out of the question.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 12:34 PM
The bet on the flop allows us to get a free card on the turn. On the river, we can hit our hand or bluff paint. Almost all the time, he is checking behind on the turn. Checking the turn does not limit our ability to make a play on the river in this case and it rarely induces a nit to make a bet with 88, 99, or whatever he has here. Also, a second barrel is rarely going to get him to fold here unless you make it enough to commit the V and yourself. If you are going to commit yourself, then why wouldn't you just shove here on the turn?
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grima21
The bet on the flop allows us to get a free card on the turn. On the river, we can hit our hand or bluff paint. Almost all the time, he is checking behind on the turn. Checking the turn does not limit our ability to make a play on the river in this case and it rarely induces a nit to make a bet with 88, 99, or whatever he has here. Also, a second barrel is rarely going to get him to fold here unless you make it enough to commit the V and yourself. If you are going to commit yourself, then why wouldn't you just shove here on the turn?
So much wrong with this post.

1. Betting the flop does not guarentee us a free card on the turn when we're out of position.

2. Why would he check the turn behind with an over pair?

3. Checking the turn and betting the river looks pretty fishy from us and I think he would (and should) call with an over pair on the river in that case.

4. While a second barrel may not get him to fold, then what option do we have? If we check/call it is harder for us to make anything on the river when the obvious draw comes in and we gave up iniatative. A check/raise kind of commits us. But a bet sets our price and we rarely get blown off our hand.

5. We're not committed with a bet on the turn. We can bet ~$65 on the turn and check/fold any non spade, ten or ace on the river.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 03:13 PM
meh maybe the games you guys play in are different than mine but usually players I have labeled as nitty/passive are not betting the turn with like 88-JJ very often when checked to because they are show down monkeys. or they have a draw and are going to take a free card.

I understand we have a strong draw and many outs, however the turn card is pretty bad for firing another barrel, and also if we get called the nits range is pretty strong at this point.

I can see an argument for betting the turn with the intention of firing pretty much all Broadway rivers and of coarse flush rivers. If that is your intention that I like it more. But understand this is a very high variance approach because once the nit calls our turn barrel his range is likely pretty strong so he isn't always folding on the river. but if we are just barreling this turn to c/f missed rivers that's a pretty big leak IMO, because I dont expect villain to be folding on this particular turn card very often.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acescracked84
1. Betting the flop does not guarantee us a free card on the turn when we're out of position. 2. Why would he check the turn behind with an over pair?
Of course I doesn't guarantee us a free card on the turn. You are playing against a "nit" in this case who just called our PF bet and then just called our bet on the flop. If he has a large overpair (JJ+), it is likely that he would raise us on either PF or on the flop, which puts him in the 88-TT, A7, ish range. If he is on a spade draw, then he wants a free card as well and is unlikely to semi-bluff on the turn when he fairly sure that he is behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acescracked84
3. Checking the turn and betting the river looks pretty fishy from us and I think he would (and should) call with an over pair on the river in that case. 4. While a second barrel may not get him to fold, then what option do we have? If we check/call it is harder for us to make anything on the river when the obvious draw comes in and we gave up iniatative. A check/raise kind of commits us. But a bet sets our price and we rarely get blown off our hand.
Yes, if we don't see a broadway or spade card on the river, then we just c/f the hand and lose a small pot. Betting on a small non-spade river card would not be advisable. If we hit (or pop a broadway and it appears that we hit), then we win a small pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acescracked84
5. We're not committed with a bet on the turn. We can bet ~$65 on the turn and check/fold any non spade, ten or ace on the river.
How much FE do you really think we have on the turn? The V is on a spade draw, mid pair, A7, etc. Most of these have showdown value. If he called PF and on the flop, he is likely going to call this turn as well. On the river, we have a 35% chance to hit our hand, otherwise we just check and give up?

Edit: or exactly what Monkey just posted.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote
12-28-2012 , 04:07 PM
Spot is really dependent on reads of opponent.
Oceans 11 2/3: ATs Quote

      
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