i agree

i feel like mandatory with two limps in front (who may or may not be sitting with 50bbs due to straddle) is a little ambitious. esp with aggro fish behind us.

Thank you for the replies. I'm not sure how folding QJo to a guy making a move is a mandatory fold. But I'll take it into consideration.

I don't think we can fold pre first time, so the question is whether to raise or call. I think a raise may be better and definitely if we have aggressive BTN or blinds but it's not a fantastic situation raising such a weak hand into 2 limpers. However QJo is a standard fold to a large raise preflop so I fold the second time AP. Postflop seems fine.

Making a move with what though? QJo is a weak hand. He's ahead if the bottom of his range is 64s, T9o, 22, A7o.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 53.47% 51.55% 1.92% { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 46.53% 44.61% 1.92% { QJo }

Well he had done this move probably 8-10 times in 2 hours so he's doing it light. I have position on him. I think he was called only one of the times before he did it and I stacked him and he had 78s. So why should he not keep doing it? I get that I certainly could be behind a hand but his raise is not wanting a call. He's just stealing the limps/blinds again. Perhaps QJo isn't the hand to make a stand with. A few people have stated as such. However his range is very wide when he pops it preflop here. Any Ace, probably most Kings, any pocket pair, some suited connectors. I honestly am not sure how many hands he wouldn't do this move with when it had been so successful with it. I also felt like because of his over aggressive nature (in my opinion) I felt like if I hit my hand my implied odds were a significant factor. I had also picked up that he didn't like being played back at and would often do big raises. My take was overplaying draws and top pair type hands.

I posted this hand because I see this move regularly by various players. If there is a family pot growing preflop, especially with a straddle, the odds of the straddler or BB popping it is pretty high. If there's 4 limpers someone puts $65 out there because they absolutely don't want a call. Perhaps it wasn't the best move calling it, but I posted this hand because I want to have a plan to play back at the stealers. Because I think with a good strategy I could win some money with it.

The thing is that 'not wanting a call' and 'doing it light' is fine but you still need to consider your hand vs. his range and it's hard to find a range that you are ahead of.

Agree you have the advantage of position and it sounds like you do have implied odds if he's just going to blast off but I think a better strategy is raising pre unless he is 3 betting a lot. That way you don't bloat the pot as much with your chitty hand, you can fold to a 3bet and you go to the flop with his range better defined - you essentially take out the top part when he doesn't 3bet.

Another thing you should think about is to 4bet wider. You need to consider whether or not he will fold to 4bets. If you think he will, then polarise and put in some bluffs with blockers (baby suited Aces) or that hit flops unexpectedly (SCs). If not just have pure value hands but go wider than you would with a normal player.

Generally if you want to play back at stealers, being aggressive is a better way to do it than playing passively and hoping to hit big. That's what everyone does at LLSNL.

I have TT in UTG+1 in a typical loose passive live $1/$2 game where all of my opponents are middle-aged (or older) white guys.

UTG limps, I raise to 10, MP calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. No one is particularly short-stacked, probably all near 100bb or more.

Flop of 7 8 4 rainbow ($40 pre rake)

Two checks to me and I cbet for $20. Thought about going bigger or checking, as this board seems much better for the limp-caller (who beat me in a big pot after limping 73s from EP) and the BB but settled on half pot.

All three players call?

Turn is a 2, creating a BDFD ($120)

Are you betting this turn again four ways? If so, going big or keeping it on the smaller side?

Kind of a basic spot but I am still a little uncomfortable in these bloated multi-way pots when I have one pair.

In spots like this, Dan, I’m betting ~$100 on the turn almost every time. Even with 3 opponents, none of their actions indicate you are behind, but your hand is extremely vulnerable, as like 2/3 of the deck could sink you on the river.

ALSO: if you ARE behind, the big turn bet will *limit* your losses, since if you are beat you will be raised and have an easy fold.

If only one guy calls you, you should also be going all-in on certain rivers.

Cool, thanks for your feedback! Heads up or even three ways, I would always go for value here but much tougher to pull the trigger four ways.

It's hard because I know that, in theory, BB and UTG should be folding anything that isn't top pair plus or a good draw when the original raiser bets and other players call. But in reality, they are calling with trash like QJo to try and bink top pair or A5 to try and hit a gutshot to a four-liner.

I'd probably bet half the pot $60. This board hits villain ranges harder than ours. Everyone called the flop, so I'd expect some pair/draw hands like 76s, someone 2 pair, and some one pair Ax suited type hands. We double block he most obvious oesd of T9. I'd be looking to get value from Vs one pair hands while not loosing too much vs big hands that c/r turn;.

Checking allows a lot of players to draw for free. Are there any good river cards besides a ten? Betting big allows top pair hands to fold and gets called by better hands.

I'm blown away by what people will call flop bets with. I really need to get better at double barreling with air.

If I had bet, I would have probably chosen somewhere closer to half-pot. I agree that if I bet $100, I am probably only getting called by better. Maybe 99 calls or a pair + flush draw. My hand definitely needs protection though, so there is certainly something to be said for taking a 60bb pot down vs. three players by bombing the turn.

FWIW, I did check. Figured I would try to navigate myself to showdown as cheaply as possible in what seemed like a more precarious situation than it actually was. T is a very good river, but I was personally hoping for another 2.

River offsuit K.

Two checks to me. I think there is some argument for block-betting this river, which is essentially a brick. I checked again though, and the IP player bet $40 which seemed bizarre. BB and UTG folded and I made pretty quick call, since the bet is for third-pot and it's really hard for me to ever have a better hand in this spot.

IP showed A7s (third pair, top kicker), which he was maybe bluffing with? I don't really know, live players are just clicking buttons sometimes I guess.

Was very happy to win a big pot here but I was unsatisfied with how I played it. If BB or UTG called the $40 on the river I would have been in a weird spot with what very well still may have been the best hand.

You still figure to be best a good percent of the time here. I just think you have to fire again. I'd bet about $80 personally. And I wouldn't be very excited about putting too much more money in this pot. You have told them you have an overpair. The flop calls may not mean a whole lot, so I want to charge draws and win a decent sized pot now. Against loose callers who "just put you on AK" and called the flop you have to fire again. If you have a tight image and some good loose players called you you have to be more careful here.

Nice win. Some people are just wired to bet if nobody else does. "Nobody bet? My hand must be good! I can't just check." There is no thought of "only a better hand will call." Or "I'm either way ahead or way behind" or "My hand has some show down value but probably not good enough to bet". It's simply "they checked, I have to bet!" I saw this a lot at a juicy table I played on Friday. You HAVE to call this river. I would have over-called in this spot as well. Perhaps a crying call but nodody has told you that your hand is no good. And the fact you checked on the turn and river looks a whole lot like AQ or AJ to bad players. The river is not a brick and not a good card. I see people take off cards on the flop like this with QJ, KJ, KQ. Etc. I think the flop dictated a larger than $20 bet on the flop as well. $30 would have been my choice multi-way. That's a great flop for 10 10. I think you should play this hand a lot more aggressively.

I'm not a big fan of raising 10 10 UTG to be honest. That or AJo are the 2 worst hands I'm playing in this position. I'd limp probably 60% of the time here and see how the preflop action develops. Getting re-raised sucks if it's a tight player that has position on you all hand. And it's a tough hand to play on a lot of flops out of position. If it's a loose passive table I'll play lower pairs for a limp here, but probably only down to 77.

I agree the river is a must call for sure. Villain seemed embarrassed to turn his hand over, so I'm not really sure what he was trying to do when he bet. I guess you are probably right, that it was just a case of him feeling like he had to bet for whatever reason.

$30 may have been a better size on the flop as well. Probably was my best shot to get extra value with my overpair and thin the field a bit. Thanks for the feedback!

I don't think I can get on board with limping TT from any position. I generally do not open limp for a variety of reasons, and I think TT is just way too good of a hand either way. It can definitely be an uncomfortable hand to play out of position multiway (hence my passive/defensive play in this spot), but open raising gets plenty of value from worse hands and some protection as well.

Almost never limping TT from any position for any action it’s too strong to limp. 99 too.

Yep.

Interesting thoughts on raising UTG. Where I play it's 9 handed and generally full tables. What else do you raise UTG? I'm pretty tight UTG and UTG+1 and UTG +2. People at my tables that raise a lot of hands preflop get played back at quite a bit after the flop. I'd rather rather 10Js in late position than 99 UTG. But we all have different styles.

I've been reading Harrington on cash games where he talks about how you have to mix up your play. So I'll limp maybe 50% of the time with 1010 UTG. Raise it the other. A10o I muck.

I play very tight in EP and raise 100%. AQo/AJs/KQs/99+. If the table is super passive I start limping some weaker hands like smaller pockets and/or suited Aces.

Harrington on cash is outdated on lots of stuff. Never limping 1010 utg,raising 100 percent.

My theory on this ..

1) We just completed 'tournament season' (WSOP) and even if Players don't play tournaments they've been in on the conversations and also perhaps watched 'plenty' of streams where a lot of 'jamming' occurs. So they apply it to their game until they get snapped off a few too many times, then they go back to 'normal'

2) IMO any long term viewing of cash game streams will probably change a playing style. Although I think most of the commentators do a very good job of trying to explain the action, there's still plenty of action that is just 'gamble' and not really related to 'poker'. The phrase 'just ready to go with it' is being passed around a lot and I think it's spread down into all of the stakes. GL

How do you play it in those limped pots if you flopped a reasonable hand OOP?

1/3 8 handed
MP limps
BU limps
SB folds
Hero/BB Q7o checks

Flop 237r
Pot: $9
Hero checks because he is expecting a bet from the aggressive button. (Was surprised to see him limping).

BU bombs 20. hero chickens out.

I know our hand is good more often than not but we are oop and outside a 7 or Q there are few cards that we are happy to see plus our reverse implieds are bad and our calling range strength pretty capped

Just folding to this kind of bet to be honest. Like the pot is supersmall,and we have nothing invested in the pot besides the forced big blind. Plus we are out of position. I see no good reasons to continue here really.

Call. Bet the turn. His bet could mean absolutely anything and we have top pair. Unless the button likes to get tricky with big pairs. In the games I've been playing with no action the button will bet any pair, any ace, air. There's no draw. Could be 78. I'm not folding yet. I like a call and a $30 bet on the turn. In my games he'd fold A LOT on the turn. But my games aren't that tough. Not sure this is the right line. But this is what I would do.

Folding probably isn't terrible due to the small pot.

QJo .. missed this one earlier. As one of the 'off the wall' suggestion makers here I would say that since 'we know' that the Straddler is prone to raising then we are simply letting them raise for us here for pot control, so to speak. Yes, we can consider a l/r line if we want based on the others remaining in the hand too. Who knows what message (if any) we sent the V with a l/c line

What we don't know is if he ever raised over an opening on his Straddle previously. This can dictate how narrow we really should be opening and QJo may not qualify if this is happening at a high frequency. GL

Q7o .. I was thinking Hero should lead out here on this Flop from the BB. It's not a Donk since there was no raise PF. But to fold out to this Player seems pretty weak. You actually got what you wanted with this Player leading out. On a disconnected Turn I like leading out AP as well. I'm assuming this Player has Ax/45-ish type of wheel hands as much as he has 99 and since there was no raise PF the pot is 'controlled' right now.

I see the 'small pot' thinking as well. I often ask the Dealer to spread the pot in these type of spots just to make sure the V knows that the bet is 'whatever' and I'm just giving it to you.

No right or wrong here .. do a soul read and go from there. I would MOST DEFINITELY show my fold in an effort to embolden this Player into more of this type of behavior. GL