I'm with you curd. Loose passive table, all limped to me in blinds, a juicer has to be done to make sure you have a chance to eventually GII.

If I have 22-55 and am going to be "juicing" up a pot with a small raise that I expect to be called by the entire table, I would at least want to be in position when I do it.

Raising to $8 from the BB with 33, we are going to lose $8 waaaay more often than we are going to win $100. We're also going to be in a variety of really uncomfortable spots OOP multiway in bloated pots when flushes and straights complete and our opponents can have every combination of off-suit connector and suited trash.

At these non-deep stack sizes, I don't see the need for a juicer. If $8 drags us a $100 pot, that's 12.5:1 on our preflop investment. If $2 drags us a $30 pot, that's a better/same 15:1 on our investment. Plus $2 could still drag us a $100 pot every once and a while (massive IO which our $8 raise obliterates). Plus we don't risk running into a limp/reraise (which costs us).

Might be some argument for it much deeper where a preflop raise would be necessary in order to play for much larger stacks postflop. But then we'd have to ask ourself how comfortable we are getting in much larger stacks with bottom set when someone else with half a brain is willing to do so too.

Gmeh,imoG

I don't think position is nearly as important here. This is a flop it or most likely fold it situation. And I'm playing for $200, not $100 stacks in the scenario given by Curd, occasionally more than one stack.



Not that one data point is definitive but...


A couple of weeks ago I flopped 332 holding 333. The only money I got out of the pot was ~$40 (3 called $12 pre less rake) + $20 which was a stab and fold play by someone I knew would make a play if checked to often enough. Fortunately it help up for the $500 high hand.

No doubt it is flop it or fold it situation. Position is still a big factor though. Here is a hypothetical for you:

You have 33 in BB and 5 players limp to you. You raise to $8 and 4 call. $40 pot.

Flop 378ss

You bet $30 and two players call. $130 in the pot.

Turn 6s

Now what?

In position, you have the option to bet small or check back on what is the worst turn in the deck. OOP, what happens when you bet small and face a raise? I guess call, right? Now if the board pairs on the river, do you lead out and hope to get value even though you've essentially turned your hand face-up? Or do you check and hope a flush/straight still chooses to bet? In position when the board pairs, I know that I can always bet when checked to or raise when another player leads out.

These situations are so much easier when you are in position. You have more options and more information to work with when you act. Easier to lose less money when bad cards come and easier to make more money when things go your way. It still applies in fit or fold scenarios.

I do agree that when you have 33 and the flop is 332, position doesn't matter that much. NH.

I go tight into 4 or 5 limpers. Like AJo+/KQo+/ATs/99+.

This is too wide. Your error is seeing absolute nonsense hands at showdown and conflating this to mean that everyone's range being bottom 30%. At every table I ever played at, and YMMV because I'm not at your room in person, 4 or 5 limpers means at least one of them is that guy who open limps hands of up to AQ/99 or even stronger. You raise 55, it's extremely difficult to realise your equity unless you are pure set mining. You raise QJo, that's worse because you will run into hands that dominate you fairly often.

I wonder if $8 raises would give you better odds. I think it's pretty close either way and there's a lot of variables that need to be assumed. I just pulled that $100 number out of thin air for a ballpark figure, but you're much more likely to win a huge pot ($200, $300, $400+) with a pre-flop raise.

With $10 in the pot on the flop in a $1/2 game, it's difficult to build a pot.

For example:
With $40 on the flop, heads up 3/4 sized betting would lead to ~$30 on the flop, $75 on the turn, and $90 on the river.
With $10 on the flop, heads up 3/4 sized betting would be ~$8 flop, $20 on the turn, $50 on the river.

Say it's ideal scenario where V is stacking off with AQ/KQ or 87s on a Q378T board, that's a $195 profit vs an $80 profit........all for the bargain price of an $8 pfr (14 to 1....LOL). Yeah, maybe the difference isn't that big either way.

It seems like it would be very difficult to realize equity with pocket 5s with 4 or 5 limpers even if you don't raise.

In normal games, raising QJo is terrible, but is it really that bad if half of the table is consistently playing any two suited cards? Q2s, Q3, Q4, Q5, etc.....? Seems like it's more likely to dominate than be dominated.

Plus, your table image gets looser,. You're more likely to get paid on your AA, KK, QQ if the table sees you raising non-premiums.

Except you arent playing heads up against one weak as hell range-you are playing against 5 different ranges combined. And out of position. There is a good reason every experienced player here will tell you this is a terrible idea.

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5/10/25, hero flats sb open in bb with AcTc, straddler calls too three ways $1,200 eff. Unfortunately readless but V appears capable.

($225): AKQr with a club. Sb continues $75, we call, straddler calls. Turn ($425): 7c bringing our bdfd. Sb $225, only we call. River ($875): 3d. V $475. Hero? We block clubs / bluffs and value with our A and T, is this hand too strong to fold given our range? Thanks.

Sure either way that's true, so why put in 8bb instead of 0bb or 0.5bb?

How many combinations of Q2s->QTs + J2s -> JTs is there vs. KQ/AQ/KJ/AJ? It's not as one-sided as you might think. To add to your woes, you are playing out of position, making it harder for you to realise equity and easier for your opponent. Say you flop Q-high, are you going for 3 streets? Hard to called by worse if you do, even on the safest runouts. If you don't go for 3, how are you responding to a bet? What about 2 bets? Your opponent can make the decisions here. They should be able to xb a street when behind and bet a street when ahead, negating your weak range advantage.

Better ways to get a looser image are to raise wider on the button and exert pressure postflop on people who have a fold button and whose ranges are capped. FWIW my advice is start with a tight range and gradually add hands, don't go straight to raising weak dominated hands into multiple limpers OOP. That said it's your money.

ATc .. 3 to 1 on the chips is pretty good. But firing into two other Players twice is pretty strong. How do you view 1/3, 1/2, 1/2 triple barrel? It lays such a good price if 'you' call for the Straddler on both Flop and Turn that V must be pretty comfortable with their holding .. unless they are just 'auto' betting. I just don't see enough AX one-pair holdings firing a third bullet .. would love to have seen the bet timing/handling of chips and any other behaviors.

I'm leaning folding to QQ here and also wanting to avoid the major head shake when AJs is turned over (although unlikely in a 3-barrel). We're just not good more than 25% of the time against a read-less three barrel. If the River bet 'took time' then I might be inclined to call more often, but if it was in rhythm I'd have to let ABC win me over and fold.


PP OOP in 1/2 .. I think a very large part of 1/2 limp-fests is 'never' getting to Showdown. In order to do that you have to make the pot bigger so that they have to think about their stack by the Turn. The other issue is you may have to define 1-2 of the limpers ranges by raising, whether it be to 8 or 14. In my world the Nitty type of Player will try to limp 44-99, but yet fold to any raise PF. That's a lot of PP you don't have to worry about on middle Boards .. which opens up the door for you to steal those pots based on the action with less fear. Even if you don't hit a set you can fire away at middle Boards with your over-pair raising image and then hopefully clean up even more when you do hit a set. If the Nits do flat a raise, then you know they are serious about their holding, which will allow you to grow 'your' pot when you do hit a set from OOP on 37Tr or similar.

I used to open for 7 or 11 with a few 16 mixed in there if I'm opening a lot. Now I use the 7 less often and you'd be amazed at how the table will interpret the smaller opening as a monster. GL

I totally agree that in position gives you lots more options than OOP. I didn't state my intent all that well. Given the choice of BTN or BB, of course I much prefer BTN. But the scenario that was questioned was when you are in the blinds.

I didn't mean to imply I don't care about position, I'm just saying that the lack of position in this narrow case, all limps and all passive table, is not a factor to convince me not to juice.

There are a lot of tables I would not bump the table bc a bump from the BB is going to get raised every time. And the math doesn't work to set mine 33 vs $200 stacks if my call has to be > $13 - 15.

Thoughts on this?

Probably a recency bias

It’ll be a hand where someone will open late (opening a lot of hands to like 15 in a 1/3 game) button will call I squeeze AQ To 75 with 300-400 effective stacks and get jammed on.

Been happening a lot recently but got jammed on the last 3 times. Usually will get folds

Throwing out $75 with $300 eff seems a little excessive. I believe what we want to accomplish with our squeeze is to get the opener out of the pot and then heads up with the fish calling too many hands on the button. (I'm assuming he is a fish and it's live so I'm likely right)

$60 probably accomplishes the same thing as $75 imo. $55 might be pushing it a bit. I dont think live people are adjusting to your exact size (like looking at MDF), so if they are calling $60 they are probably calling $75 and you're unnecessarily bloating a pot OOP.

ez fold vs jam and people are probably just forcing you to play correctly. I mean you can look at it like "well at least I didnt call and flop an ace against AK. or a Q against KK or AA". Or look at it like I won't always have AQo here and will be able to call a jam.

$2-5

Straddle is on, the game is trending toward loose passive with only a few players open raising or iso'ing.

V1 is an angle shooting omc, limps some portion of the top of his range (TT-QQ, AK/AQ), and will make massive raises with the rest. Playing 700

V2 is down maybe 1.5k, is a regular that has massive leaks in his game. I think pre-flop is his best street, he cbets often but struggles on the turn/river. Often, if he's aggressive on later streets he has at least top pair. Has 800 to start

H is known to V2, not sure if v1 remembers me. H has been tight for the last 2-3 hours due to being card dead and really spot dead. V2 knows H is capable of bluffing and isn't just here to match cards, covers.

Straddle is on, 1 ep limp, v1 limps lj, v2 makes it 50 from hj, folds to h on the bu, 150 with A4 only v1 and v2 calls
Flop (470): 873 both x to h. I expected to take down the pot pre (and often I do), maybe play hu with v2 but didn't expect both villains to call. When both villain's calls, I think on this flop it makes sense to take a free turn, turn some equity and go from there. I don't think I check back my over pairs here, so def an exploitable check back.


Fine checking this spot and playing turn/river or a small cbet is order to target villain's better Ax, deny equity to some broadway?

I think if we check this hand all the time OTF we wont have enough bluffs.

Are we 3betting QJs, T9s, KJs?

It's such a good spot to bet small because we do have all those overpairs and we dont block their broadway hands.

It's almost better to check AK more often here.

However, we started this hand 80bbs eff right? a guy who you note is solid preflop is isoing from the hj, it's probably fine to let this hand go pre.

what does omc stand for?

Not 3b QJs, T9s KJs pre especially at this depth. I wanted to have an Ace blocker.

It's better to check AK here because we're blocking more broadway combos villain's can have, can you elaborate?

I can get behind folding this pre at this stack depth.

and OMC = old man coffee.

Yeah pretty much. I would think KQ-KTs makes up some of their range. Then theres the people who can have the offsuit versions but I'm not sure this is the case.

I mean I probably bet 100% of my range for a small sizing here against 1 villain. Since we have 2, I think we can cut out certain hands but not all the time.

If one of the villains is way too loose pre i'd just go for it anyways...but I play 1/3.

It sounds like you have a good enough image to go for it as well, since most of the time you say you take down these spots pre. But it's close and it seems fine to go with your exploitable read.

However my only Q is that is V1 limps his premiums pre does he also not limp/rr them?

does that mean nitty passive pre, abc post?

Yes, you have the OMC description correct.

V1 does l/r pre here and there but that doesn't deter me from 3b this combo pre and having the Ace blocker is good for this reason as well. I don't mind betting small with 100% of our range here, it might generate enough folds to make the cbet profitable but given the SPR when this hand became multi, I'm not sure if I can get behind that.

I agree, maybe make it 50% of the time with our hand and like 0% if we dont have a bdfd. then maybe bet 33% of the time with AK?

It turns our hand face up, but we have position and can play some turns.

If we really wanted to we could x back some overpairs so we cant get exploited on turns, but like it's live poker, it's probably not necessary, we are here for the value.

Only thing is since we are building this checking range we might want to size up a little more than we would in a HU pot.

Generally speaking, are paired boards good candidates to double barrel in LLSNL?

AA78
JJ24
664K
9953

I know online and higher stakes you open yourself to c/r and c/r bluffs. What about typical $1/2, $1/3 games?

this is super vague.

live youll get more players seeing flops so now you’re cbetting less than normal.

people are definitely more passive live so inherently there will be less bluffing

in general double paired boards will be favorable to us assuming there is a couple limps ahead of us and we have a solid isoing range. people call with too wide of a range so we are able to cbet and take down alot of pots.

assuming we are cbetting alot of our range otf we need to be more polar ott unless the turn is good for our range. like a K on JJ4 or something.

with your flop/then turn examples it appears like we would be polarizing our range so we wouldnt double barrel as much, but when we do we go for a bigger size.

i also wouldnt be cbetting KQs on a 664r board either. but again it helps to know the situation (spr/position etc) and the range we have and what we are up against.

Playing locally 2/3 NL. My stack is $460. BB has about $540. I stacked BB earlier with a set against his straight draw that he played very aggressively. He is very aggressive in general and will absolutely play for his stack with top pair kicker/over pair. In general he will not slow down if he is simply called. If he hit top pair and is bet into he will raise very large. He's been stacked twice but he isn't clueless and is definitely going to be aggressive which has won him some money back.

Live Straddle to $6. 2 Limpers to me in the CO. I call with QJo. Button Folds, SB completes. BB is the straddle and makes it $40 to go. He's done this move several times in the few hours I've played with him. Does it on the button. Or when he straddles. He has a pretty wide range here.

Anways, It folds around to me and I call (re-raise?)

Flop comes QsQh6d

He leads out $30. I decide to be tricky and raise my trips. By far the most common play with trips here is to smooth call but I know he doesn't like being played back at and it will look like I'm trying to push him off a hand. I raise to $100. He calls pretty quickly.

Turn comes 4c.

He bets $95 into me. Huh? Again he would do this with an overpair. Or air. I call.

River comes an As. Not the card I wanted to see but his range honestly is still pretty wide in my mind. At least I think so. He shoves.

Hero calls. How'd I do?

Everything post-flop is perfect. Easy slam-dunk call, you're at the top of your range, your raise on the flop worked exactly as you had hoped in that it induced him to spew (or over-value top pair).

Everything pre-flop is perfectly-ly incorrect. QJo in the CO in an unraised pot is a mandatory raise. Instead, you over-limped. QJo, when facing a 7-BB raise from the blinds, is a mandatory fold. Instead, you called.