Not to be a Sith here, but you should NEVER bet big on a Monotone flop, with any hand, ever. There’s $190 in there, bet $40-$60 with your strong value hands and your bluffing hands. Ranges are inelastic here, so we bet small.

I get what you are saying and I could be completely wrong but here was my though process--We are never up against AA here. If somebody has AQss/ATss or Asxs god bless them take my money. The kinds of hands that call here are Asx, QQ, AJ, QsJ, TsTx all of which we want to make a bad call. Hands which could cooler us like JJ/99 or suited garbage we still have decent equity. Last thing I wanted was to give Asx the correct price to call.

I agree with you, donkatruck. Poker is a very complex game, and it’s foolish to think that one can impose an ABSOLUTE rule, such as “one should never bet big on a monotone flop”, on ALL situations and possible flops. That’s not how poker works, and there are exceptions to virtually every “rule”.

With two black K’s and an SPR of about 1.3, Hero is pot-committed and never folding. The flop is extremely draw-heavy (many straight and lower flush draws), and Hero should be charging the maximum for those draws if his opponents wish to try to suck out. In particular, Hero cannot give a cheap price to a naked As (such as AsQd) to suck out by the river. He gets maximum value from lower flush draws (which are basically drawing dead) by shoving, and he also gives the worst possible price for a naked As by shoving. He also protects his hand from the various straight draws by shoving. Betting small on this flop is pretty terrible for all the reasons I detailed. Shoving on the flop is the only sensible move.

Just to add a little more to this:

Betting small or even checking would make much more sense if Hero had flopped the nut flush (e.g., AsKs) OR did not have a spade at all (e.g., KdKh). But, with KsKc, betting small does not appear to be best.

Here is an example of a hand one should almost always bet huge or shove with on a monotone flop:

Hero has 87s (spades) on a flop of QT3, all spades. This hand is probably best on the flop right now, but is very vulnerable and can easily be outdrawn by a bigger spade on later streets. Hero should bet big or shove on the flop to protect against bigger one-spade hands (main purpose), such as KsKd, and get value from non-spade hands, such as two pairs or sets and non-believing overpairs or AQ (secondary purpose).

I just ran this hand through a solver on my phone (SolverPlus), and the solver raises a small river bet 99.7% of the time (apparently looking to get value from lower flushes). (The solver, by the way, prefers to bet small, about 25% pot, on the flop and turn.) Is this how live low-stakes poker ($1/$2 through $2/$5) differs from strong GTO play? Are we saying that no live player — except the worst players — would ever call a river raise here with anything but the nut flush, so there is no point in raising with the second nuts? This seems to be a large deviation from GTO play. This exact spot comes up extremely rarely in my own play, so I am very interested in some generalizations here and how they differ from how very strong and balanced “GTO” players would play. If the villain had bet tiny on the river (about $30 to $50), can we raise for value then, or should we still only flat-call?

Just to clarify this example a bit: Hero’s hand needs quite a bit of protection and should bet big or shove on the flop when facing two or more opponents. And it is almost a mandatory shove on the flop (assuming a reasonably small SPR) in a 4- or 5-way pot. Hero can certainly bet smaller (and probably should) if the hand is heads-up.

Multi-way pots are often quite different from heads-up pots. That’s why we cannot apply absolute and simple “rules” like the one davo proposed for monotone flops in every situation. It “all depends” on many variables, including the number of players to the flop.

Amusing hand from last night.

V1 limps UTG with KK.
6 people see the flop.

Flop ($10)
K99r
Checks around

Turn
10
Checks around

River
J
Checks around

V1 shows kings full and scoops.

It's villain dependent, but when we have no reads and someone leads out with 4 diamonds on the board (especially in multi way pots) they probably have at least a KHF and yes this is much more reliable when it's the 4th flush card vs a 3rd one, but of course there are so many more variables involved such as the bet size and how the hand was played up to that point.

From yesterday, 2/5 card room, 3 limps and it is to me in the BB with 46o. I check and flop 2nd nuts with 5,7,8r.

Does anyone bet here?

I checked and the 6 day a week pro bet $15, gets a call from a fish, a fold and it is back to me. Does anyone raise here?

I called and the turn is 7,7,8,2 with a FD. I check and the pro bets $45, fish calls, and I make it $200.

They both fold without much thought. The pro says he had A8.

Any critique here?

I'd be ok with considering a raise against a very small blocking-size bet (because then there is some extra did-he-just-raise-me-cuz-my-bet-size-is-so-lol-small levelling going on). But here here he led for almost 1/2 PSB and even a minraise is putting in a hefty chunk of $$$ for a capped BI 1/3 NL game.

FWIW, I know next to nothing about GTO. The only thing I think I know (?) is that if you need play GTO to have a shot at a decent winrate at your 1/3 NL table then you're probably playing at the wrong 1/3 NL table. But, that may just be complete ignorance talking too.

GcluelessGTOnoobG

I would have probably lead out in a limped pot, but flatting him otf is fine. If there was a FD on board then we should rase/gii. As played ott I'm still calling since depending on the stacks, if I raised and would have to fold to a re-raise, then it's probably better to just flat in these situations.

Depending on stacks and fish tendencies I may lead Flop, but mostly just c/c or c/r pretty small based on stacks

AP with paired Board I want to lead, but again tendencies/stacks and c/r is fine, but smaller maybe .. gotta charge something extra to see River GL

It is too late to correct my typo



The board on the turn is 5,7,8,2 with 2 to a flush.

The Las Vegas games, even the $1/$3 games, are probably some of the toughest in the country. There are some pros and many good regs, even at the $1/$3 level. So while playing GTO is not strictly necessary to be a winning player in Las Vegas $1/$3 games, it can definitely help boost one’s win rate. Of course, deviations from GTO play and exploitative play can sometimes make more money than purely GTO play. That’s why I was so interested in this spot. My “GTO mind” said to raise in this spot for value (and a solver would agree), but it appears that this is pointless and -EV in actual live low-stakes poker.

I think you played it fine. The check-raise on the turn is good because it brought in the backdoor FD and you want to take over the betting lead on the river since you are out of position. Maybe you could have made the turn raise a hair smaller (like $175 or $180) to encourage one call, but that’s nitpicking.

Alternatively, a small flop check-raise ($40 or $45) (with hopefully one caller) and then perhaps a 65%-pot turn bet and a half-pot river bet (on a brick river) might have made you more money while not alarming either player too much (turn check-raises tend to be viewed as stronger than flop check-raises, and the flop raise would have been smaller by definition and easier to call), but it’s hard to say.

Do you ever just flat KK?

I was at a table with two ultra lags. They were going at it every hand in poker and verbally. One guy completely hated the other. Most hands at the table were those two players heads up shoveling piles of money in with nothing. There was one other guy who kept buying for 50 BBs and shoving any piece of the flop or any draw.

I was completely card dead and hadn't played a hand in like two hours. The only hand I played was KK where I raised pre and doubled up through LAG1 when he raised a 743 flop over my c-bet and I shoved.

LAG1 limped from UTG
LAG 2 made his standard raise to 15 from MP (his PFR was 40-50%)
I pick up KK on the button.

If I 3-bet, my hand is going to be face up as AA/KK (even though my 3-bet range is much wider).

Is flatting a bad idea here?

You didn’t mention any stack sizes, which would help with the analysis. Generally, I avoid flat-calling preflop with KK unless the preflop raise is already a good size and I am guaranteed or almost guaranteed to be heads-up post-flop. I think trapping preflop with KK or AA versus a LAG player can be a good play and make you more money sometimes, but only if you are heads-up. Here, the preflop raise is a small size, and flat-calling the raise will probably invite the UTG limper to call, if not both blinds as well. In the worst case, you will take your KK 5 ways to the flop — which is really bad — and your odds of winning the hand decrease dramatically. So it just seems like a terrible idea.

In this hand, if you really fear scaring off both players, I would 3-bet small, to perhaps $35 or $40, so that LAG2 is almost forced to call with any decent hand and LAG1 will probably not call with some garbage hand that can crack your KK (and the blinds will probably fold). The small 3-bet might also induce a light 4-bet from LAG2, which would obviously be awesome. You also start building a pot versus one or two players who might pay you off big post-flop.

Not from the button or the blinds where our raising range should be wide enough where’ a LAG can justify raising again or calling

But if there’s an ep raise and we’re mp and can flat with a strong expectation of a raise behind then I trying that can be fine. Because playing KK underrepresented post flop can be ok

But it depends on your image too - if you raise a lot then we need to keep all our premiums in our 3 betting range but if you’re a nit I think it can be ok in certain situations but not as a default

Lag Vs each had $500+ in $1/2 game. Hero had like $250

I assumed this was a $2/$5 game initially for some reason. Given that this was actually a $1/$2 game, a $15 preflop raise is not actually small (it’s probably a little larger than average), but the rest of my analysis basically still applies. Because both LAG players have about $500 each and Hero has about $250, a $35 3-bet will probably get calls from both LAG1 and LAG2 (or at least from LAG2) and folds from all other players, the ideal result. After building a decent-sized pot preflop, you can fairly easily get your stack in by the turn or river as long as the board is favorable or safe (whereas it would been much more difficult to do so if you had just flat-called preflop). A more standard 3-bet size of $45 to $50 might have screamed strength, given your image, and gotten you no action. A flat-call is still a very bad idea in this spot.

In today's poker in my area the stake really means nothing .. The opening raises by a lot of Players are $11-18 unless it's the OMC first table of the day. The reason being 'that everyone will call'. I can easily visualize the table dynamic here with these two guys not wanting the other Players to get in the middle of their 'match' without first paying a worthy price.

It's hard to offer advice in this spot without knowing the full dynamic of Hero. You have two scenarios with 'only' $250 in your stack.
1) You raise .. and you will be hunted
2) You flat .. and let two ATC Players see a Flop at their terms

I would be considering their post-Flop c-bet tendencies. If one/both of them are 'always' betting the Flop with or without connecting, then I don't mind seeing a Flop in position.

If you've been card dead and have no 'relationship' with the V please don't say 'let's sweeten the pot' or 'I guess I'll play a hand' and then put in a small raise. If you have had any tendency to fold on Flops then I would bet bigger, like $65. Send the 'AK' or small-mid pp I'm just happy to take it down message. Has either one of them shown a tendency to fold to previous 3bets or are they 'up to the challenge' from other V at the table?

Will LAG1 ever 3bet from UTG? Obv this is the dream spot .. You flat and get a back raise. My hope is that LAG1 will not want you in the hand and try to force you out .. not realizing where your stack is completely.

Have I flatted with KK in this spot, sure. But I tend to do what I've been doing 'all' the time in these spots to not send up any smoke signals. If you are only entering pots via open/3-bet then do so. If you are only entering pots by flatting, then do so. Based on your comments you really don't have a Showdown range to work with here other than KK so any 3bet should look strong. What have they done to other 3bets, if there have been any?

You have to ask yourself what are you going to do on 'any' Flop .. Tx9x7y comes out and there's a Donk and a call, what are you doing? If you are ready to GII on 70% of Flops then you should raise. If you think you're going to fold to pressure or a x/r, then just flat and let them lead you to the promised land on their terms. Either way you are crossing fingers for the most part.

There is no right or wrong here .. You can't GTO when you're playing two non-GTO Players because their behavior 'doesn't compute'. You just have to pick a plan and see what happens.

If you do what you're supposed to do, they will see right through it .. and fold, moving on to the next hand when you most likely wont be involved. So I would flat or over-bet a little and hope they want to hunt you. GL

Just raise the KK. The LAGs arent thinking about you, they're thinking about themselves.

I was beyond card dead and probably looked like the nittiest nit ever. I was looking for a 75s, 22, or KT in late position to raise just so I wouldn't telegraph big hands. Couldn't get anything playable though. 82, J3, 73....crazy run of crap.

LAG1 kept calling that short stack's 3-bets all-in light (and LAG2's 3-bets), but was folding to other's raises. Played with LAG1 again today. He's actually wicked smart. His family is rich and he doesn't care about money. Today, he was giving crazy action to other crazy players, but giving no action to anyone else. He called $100 pot sized bet on a gutshot against a terrible splashy player, but would instafold to tight players both pre and post flop.

I had two concerns with 3-betting. One was that they'd just fold. The other was that they knew exactly what I had and could play accordingly post flop. LAG1 would essentially put me all-in on any 2 pair+ or any scary flop (like 568 monotone). He'd likely do with a c/r, too; so any bet post flop would be committing my stack. If they both called, then I'd be up against 4 random cards with my hand face up.

If I flat pre-flop, the flop is almost always getting c-bet by one of the lags.

No chance LAG1 would 4-bet from UTG. He'd flat or fold.

You are over-thinking this way too much, dude. Make your life much easier by 3-betting so that you are not called by garbage hands (which can crack your KK) and the hand does not go 4 or 5 ways. If you get no action, oh well. It’s better to win a small pot than to lose a huge one! I am always slightly disappointed when I get no action with my AA or KK, but then I remind myself that it could be much worse and I could have lost a big pot or even my entire stack with the hand.

You cannot “force” value from your KK or control what other players do or don’t do, even when you have been card-dead the whole night. You can only play your A game and hope that you can win big (and don’t lose big) with your premium hands. Don’t make huge deviations from your standard game just to try to adjust to LAG players. This is usually a losing proposition.

You also cannot play scared just because you are facing one or two opponents who are LAG and can potentially put a lot of pressure on you. You just have to do your best to evaluate whether a big bet or raise is a bluff or a value hand. Sometimes, you must take a stand against LAG players — and you may not always be right. And sometimes you catch a big bluff/punt and get huge value from your premium hands. None of this will happen if you fear getting into big pots against LAG players with only a one-pair hand.

One tip in playing against LAG players is to bet big — 70% to 90% pot — on most flops and turns (with both value hands and bluffs), unless you flop a monster hand (e.g., boat, set, straight), in which case a small bet or even a check is better. They are less likely to raise you with bluffs or “make moves” if your initial bets are big, and they are more likely to fold when you have bluffs because of your tight image and big bet. Remember that THEY also have to fear that you have a monster hand (or a one-pair hand that will not fold) and cannot just relentlessly raise you with air. LAG players might be very aggressive, but they are not completely stupid.